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Post by Chris_Wendt on Nov 13, 2013 6:57:37 GMT -5
...in East Setauket. Parents, teachers, principals, not going to take it any more, and they let the Commissioner and the Chancellor of the Regents know it, at Ward Melville High School last night. It being New York's ill-timed implementation of the Common Core Assessments, two years ahead of the schedule established and agreed upon by the PARCC Consortium, of which New York State is a member. Tisch's pipe dream and King's stubbornness could result in any benefit that may ever have flowed from the Common Core Curriculum being stifled or killed, dead, by King's and Tisch's bull-headed handling of the Common Core Assessments. There is another regional meeting, this afternoon in Mineola High, 4:00, by invitation (tickets sent to pre-selected attendees) only. Read the account in Newsday (link), coverage of the meeting in the Ward Melville High School on 11-12-13. Ward Melville High School is in the Three Village School District, one of the better districts in the state. Wantagh outperforms Three Village: - 182 to 175 combined ELA & Math Performance Indices
- 97% Graduation Rate to 92% Graduation Rate.
You could see this coming, folks. Especially if you follow my blogs. Chris Wendt |
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Post by rr on Nov 13, 2013 13:06:30 GMT -5
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greda
Junior Member
Posts: 44
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Post by greda on Nov 13, 2013 13:29:17 GMT -5
RR you are not alone.
We have already stated, between the two of us, that there is a lot of good that will come from the tougher standards. Could it have been implemented better? Probably but the teachers union and Mr. Wendt would always have some other excuse.
The over inflated stats and grades from prior years which Chris keeps on bringing up won't change what you and I have seen with our own kids. Yet when we bring up information to support our position or attempt to better explain our position, Chris becomes Chicken Little again
And there well could have been 1.500 people there but most of them are teachers frustrated that , heaven forbid, they may be held accountable or might have to update their teaching modules. Our kids are not being properly prepared for the future. And that concerns me more than protesting teachers who dont want to have an intelligent conversation on this issue but would rather just contribute to the declining social discourse - they are really a great example for our kids. Unless they overhear a comment in a hallway and decide to call in the swat team.
(and in conjunction with that issue, my kids health teacher slept for most of the 2 hours that they were in lockdown but that's right our Wantagh teachers can do no wrong)
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Post by Chris_Wendt on Nov 13, 2013 16:41:14 GMT -5
rr at least makes rational points and brings supporting documentation to the table in support of his positions. He does not resort to name calling or unkind generalizations of other people, groups of people. And I know who he is and have immense respect for his perspectives based on that. Anonymous commenters who take ad hominem digs at me, not so much.
I am not to be blamed for reporting about the 1,500 disaffected people who came out in East Setauket yesterday, any more than I will accept blame or guilt over what may be happening in Mineola as I write this, here.
To his credit, rr has correctly assessed last night's events as mob mentality in action; the Commissioner's forum...a mob scene. No getting around that.
But that mob did not perpetrate the colossal blunder with the 2013 assessments; that damage had already been inflicted last spring, and it is 100% on the tab of the Chancellor and her lackey, the Commissioner.
Sooner or later, the other Regents are going to realize the extent of that damage to the very credibility of the NY State Education Department, to their Commissioner, and by association, to themselves...if they continue to suffer fools, namely Chancellor Tisch and Commissioner King.
Heads should roll; off with their heads! Figuratively speaking, of course.
Next year the State Legislators, who represent those angry mobs militating all around our state with their pitch forks and torches, will stand for election again. Our politicians will be in no mood to suffer fools over at NYSED. Neither will Governor Cuomo, who will also stand for re-election in '14.
Take heart, those of you who "support" Common Core. Politics will surely take a hand to resolve this before the pumpkins ripen next fall.
How will it get resolved? Depends in large measure on how many parents opt-out of the 2014 assessments.
It will also depend on just how bad the 2012-13 Report Cards look, whenever they are issued.
Keep watch! Keep careful watch!
Chris Wendt
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Post by rr on Nov 13, 2013 22:01:28 GMT -5
So I decided to attend the meeting at Seaford HS tonight that went through the Common Core and some of the changes that the students and teachers are going through. Too bad you won't hear about the teachers that got up and spoke about how they support the Common Core tomorrow in Newsday. The teachers were amazing tonight, they were clear, elegant speakers that spoke passionately about how they believe the new standards and are a great step forward. There were, of course, some people unhappy about the Common Core and a few that had to bring up Opting Out but I felt the meeting was very helpful as a parent of young children. Seeing the administration and the teachers embrace the change and challenge was great to see. Now, the headlines tomorrow will probably look something like "King takes a beating in Mineola" instead of Seaford teachers elegantly explain the benefits of Common Core and discuss some of the challenges they are facing without a crowd yelling about their dissatisfaction.
I think a more useful/helpful route would be for all districts to have these types of meetings. The mob mentality is downplayed when the lighting rod is not in the room…when it's our teachers speaking positively about the new standards people may actually listen and may realize that Opting Out of tests helps nobody. If we clearly explain some of the challenges the districts are facing and have meaningful discussion instead of booing, clapping and talking over speakers maybe people will be more accepting the of the changes that are being implemented.
I'm happy I went tonight, hearing from those teachers gave me confirmation that there are plenty of great educators out there in favor of these standards and are up to the task. They're unafraid of the evaluations, the constraints and the evolution that we all need to embrace to ensure our kids are ready for life.
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Post by Chris_Wendt on Nov 14, 2013 7:27:56 GMT -5
They were fairly well-behaved at Mineola last evening. King and Tisch are now "looking for ways to reduce testing", whatever that means. This show came off better than the previous one in East Setauket because, unlike the forum in the Three Village School District, the one at Mineola High was admission by ticket only, with pre-selected speakers and questions organized by topic in advance. There was a demonstration outside the school before the meeting started. Read the account in Newsday (link). To rr's report on the Seaford meeting, this was good to hear. As noted, King (as well as Tisch) has made himself a "lightning rod". He can fix that (as can Tisch) by resigning. Back to Seaford for a moment, and especially rr's take on what he heard and witnessed. Remember there are three components to the Common Core: - the Common Core Concept (make all students "college and career ready")
- the Common Core Curriculum (a set of national "learning standards" theoretically designed to fulfill the promise of the CC Concept)
- the Common Core Assessments (the tests which King & Tisch decided to implement 2 years ahead of the rest of the country).
The Seaford meeting apparently focused on the Common Core Curriculum, the least controversial element of the CC. Unproven anywhere, but not to be found lacking until it has been fully (and properly) implemented and some time has elapsed to judge its success at fulfilling the mission of making every student "college and career ready". Let's give it a chance, okay? Sure. Well, maybe. "Common Core" detractors are generally NOT faulting or criticizing the specifics of the CURRICULUM. I am certainly not attacking the CURRICULUM, because neither I nor most of YOU have ever seen the CURRICULUM. So what's not to like? The lightning flowing through the King-Tisch lightning rod is not about the curriculum, it is about the ASSESSMENTS. It is about the preeminence of testing, and the utilization of test results for purposes that have absolutely NOTHING TO DO WITH THE STUDENT LEARNING OBJECTIVES OF THE CURRICULUM OR THE UNDERLYING MISSION OF THE "CONCEPT", including sharing YOUR KID's information with third-party corporate interests. The Concept part, though not generally the target of rage against the machine, is, to me, very seriously flawed. Perhaps fatally so, in the mode of The New Math, the conversion to the Metric System, and No Child Left Behind. Time will certainly tell this part of the story, that is unless the Assessment War kills the Common Core outright, before the entire story can be told. I intend to start focusing my analyses and writings more on the flawed Common Core Concept and less-so on the Assessments, although the Assessment spectacle draws the attention of readers. If I ever find out what exactly is in the Common Core Curriculum, then I will let you know what I think about is merits or its shortcomings. All I know for sure about the CC Curriculum is one word: rigorous. It would indeed be a shame if the Common Core Curriculum was excellent, but your kids were denied the benefits of it, because the Assessment fracas caused by the Commissioner of Education killed it. I heard yesterday that state politicians will step-in to end this distraction over testing next spring, I mean if King and Tisch have not figured out how, themselves, or resigned in the interim. This testing debacle is a state-wide phenomenon, with far worse (more serious) implications outside of Long Island. That makes it a bipartisan political issue, and a potential win for any politician who jumps on the bandwagon to end the controversy. It also makes it a big risk to any politician who comes down on the "wrong side" of the issue (vis-a-vis his financial supporters or his voters). Stay tuned! Chris Wendt |
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Post by rr on Nov 14, 2013 10:03:01 GMT -5
Chris, You're a smart man - If you want to measure the impact of a change you need to to first set a common benchmark then test against that benchmark to see if there is growth or not. How can we measure the success or failure of this new concept if we don't test? As far as 3rd party information sharing...it's been beaten to death already and the complaints have very little footing as far as I can see. There's a lot of people talking and blogging and many of those right wing talking heads bring this up on TV but it's all opinion. I would suggest anyone who hasn't read about InBloom should do so: www.inbloom.org/faqThere's no boogie man looking to exploit the kids, there's no religious faction looking to implement their beliefs on the kids, there's no corporate conspiracy to take over education...can we all just get over that? The concept, as you call it, and I see it is, to create accountability at all levels to ensure that the taxpayers get quality educators teaching the kids using a common set of goals. How they reach those goals is up to each state. Data collection and the use of data, the reliance on data, to make educated decisions is not going away...no matter how many parents and teachers yell at John King. |
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Post by Chris_Wendt on Nov 14, 2013 10:59:54 GMT -5
rr...You are right and I do not wish to argue on the point of data sharing. Your point is taken that this (data sharing) has been exploited by interests that have no actual concern over this issue, but they know it is a hot button for parents and for privacy and security paranoiacs and diehard libertarians.
But that exploitation has been tangentially effective, not in stemming data sharing, but in recruiting, arousing and activating allies against the Common Core, regardless of their individual or group rationale.
Nefarious.
Chris Wendt
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greda
Junior Member
Posts: 44
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Post by greda on Nov 15, 2013 10:23:50 GMT -5
Per Mr. Wendt:
"The Concept part, though not generally the target of rage against the machine, is, to me, very seriously flawed. Perhaps fatally so, in the mode of The New Math, the conversion to the Metric System, and No Child Left Behind. Time will certainly tell this part of the story, that is unless the Assessment War kills the Common Core outright, before the entire story can be told.
I intend to start focusing my analyses and writings more on the flawed Common Core Concept and less-so on the Assessments, although the Assessment spectacle draws the attention of readers. If I ever find out what exactly is in the Common Core Curriculum, then I will let you know what I think about is merits or its shortcomings. All I know for sure about the CC Curriculum is one word: rigorous."
If you are going to look into something to determine whether it is good or not, it would help if you didn't go in with a preconceived notion of it - kind of taints the objectivity. Perchance you misspoke and I am mistaken. If so then I humbly apologize.
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Post by Chris_Wendt on Nov 15, 2013 15:21:27 GMT -5
First, to rr then to Greda “Testing”? Baseline? Certainly you do not believe that the Wantagh School District has not been accountable through the years… … to our students? … to their parents? … to ourselves (as Trustees, as administrators, as educators)? .. to the State? Res ipsa loquitur: Our results speak for themselves. Wantagh not only has solid baseline data on the success of our endeavors, but also a very well-established trend line of excellent results. The big "tests" of our performance, our student outcomes, per se, specifically our 4-year cohort graduation rate, and, our post-secondary college attendance rates are among the highest in the nation. Those are the real high-stakes “tests”, because they impinge directly upon each of our students in the most meaningful ways. But equally relevant to your questioning the need for “testing” is the fact that the 4-year high school graduation rate is an absolutely clean and an absolutely consistent metric for at least the past ten years, as the state has standardized both graduation requirements and how to account for (and justify) the 4-year cohort graduation rate. Where each of approximately 276 students may have landed respective of 13 discreet, subjective Grade Level Performance metrics on state assessments each year becomes totally meaningless in the shadow of a 95% to 97% graduation rate at the end of each student’s 13-year tenure in our schools, and is absolutely effaced as 94%-99% of them go off to college each year. Argue against this if you wish, but I fail to see any value added for our students or their families by the past, present or future results of (Common Core) Assessments. If anything, I recommend Wantagh and districts performing similarly to Wantagh should be granted a rolling 3-year exemption from further (Common Core) assessments as long as they continue to demonstrate high graduation rates and high college attendance outcomes. (I have just submitted this as a suggestion to Tisch, King, our Regent, Roger Tilles). Wantagh is and has been College Ready…our kids are already ready, or they will be by their senior year! --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Greda's last comment: "If you are going to look into something to determine whether it is good or not, it would help if you didn't go in with a preconceived notion of it." Not so. You cannot test a hypothesis unless you articulate that hypothesis. Columbus, Galileo, Newton, Pasteur, Mendel, Pavlov, Einstein, Salk.... If these people did not halve definite preconceived ideas about how their experiments may turn out, then they most likely would not have bothered performing them. I don't have a problem with the prospect of a hypothesis of mine being proven wrong. That's part of the scientific method. I hope you understand. Regards, Chris Wendt |
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Post by rr on Nov 15, 2013 16:46:24 GMT -5
So let me ask you a question then Chris, do you feel that the Common Core will tank our graduation rates and good stats?
It's funny how people love to throw stats and metrics around and then call for an end to testing and data collection....where do you think these metrics come from? It's hard to balance all the grievances here and on all the various outlets but I'm trying...
If you, or anyone, honestly think that the Common Core will create a deep decrease in our graduation rates I think you're probably wrong. Teachers have been teaching, kids learn some shine and some struggle and we've always had standardized tests...NOW we get to baseline all the districts, dealing with the same struggling and shining kids and see how are our teachers and our kids performing against other similar districts and we get to see the results and then we get to take action - real action.
Whats the issue with this? I'm not talking about a single kid struggling with tests or homework, I'm not talking about about the exceptions - I'm talking in GENERAL, in mass, how does Wantagh stack up? I want to know what my tax dollars are really getting my kids.
No system is perfect and no real change can be implemented without ruffling feathers and people getting uncomfortable but c'mon - this is a step in the right direction. Instead of derailing it we should support it and work WITH the BOE, administrators, teachers and Commissioner King to implement the change. Not drown him out with boos and yell at him...nothing productive comes from that.
Instead of joining the crowd and passing some silly resolution, I hope Wantagh stands up and takes the lead to embrace the change and trust that our teachers, parents and our kids can rise above the discomfort and show the other districts how it's done. Wouldn't it be nice to live in a SD known for being a top performing district rather than the district that ran through 3 supers in 3 years? Wouldn't it be great to be a place where families want to move because our district consistently scores higher than others? I'd love to see Wantagh in the Top Schools list one year, no matter how meaningless it may be statistically, in the court of public perception it means something...it becomes a place where small businesses want to come, people want to build new homes, a place where people invest in businesses that aren't head shops.
whatever...I can go on for days...this is an opportunity for Wantagh...will we all step up or follow the crowd?
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Post by Chris_Wendt on Nov 15, 2013 21:31:46 GMT -5
I have absolutely no idea about how or even if the Common Core may affect the four-year cohort graduation rate in Wantagh. Hypothetically, with our graduation rate at 97%, no statistically significant increase in that rate is even possible, so I would say that CCC is precluded from being a positive factor in Wantagh's graduation rate. However, nothing is to say that our graduation rate will not go down over the next four years, and if it does, then CCC will be the likely suspect, but I am NOT hypothesizing that outcome. As far as the 2013 Assessments are concerned, you may think the results will serve as baseline data, only, except, but they are not valid, because they tested against material that was not taught in our schools before the assessments were administered; but the next round of assessments will follow a full year of teaching to those (new) tests. Apples::Oranges. You cannot then turn around to parents or to your own children and say, "Look how much better the Common Core results are, now that we have started teaching the material to be tested", using last year's flawed tests as your base. Any improvement will NOT have resulted from the Mojo of the CCC, but rather it would have resulted from the fact that we have now started teaching from the CCC to the tests. You can go, right now, to the NYSED School Report Cards (link) and look at every single district in this state for the last seven years, and compare data, and you can use any year as the baseline for the following year or years. Look at AYP to see progress over each prior year, for each metric, and against published goals. Now I challenge you to explain how years and years of assessment- and other test-based data, plus standardized graduation rates and post secondary outcomes are not already the baseline you seem to crave. If the existing data is corrupt or faulty, or, otherwise not credible, then what will make the next round of data any more credible or useful? If you say the existing, "old" data is no good, then my retort will be that any new data will be equally worthless. You proffered that booing and shouting-down the Commissioner would accomplish nothing. So far you are correct. However, I suspect that the hope of those doing the shouting is to make of the Commissioner a Pariah, untenable to the remainder of the Board of Regents, but especially so to the politicians coming up for re-election next November, for whom the Commissioner may become a big liability, someone whom they can not and will not support. Although elected representatives cannot directly remove the Commissioner, they can make next year's state budget very uncomfortable for the Regents if they hang-on to King, tenaciously, in the face of continued public outcry for his removal. Do you doubt the power of NYSUT and the NEA to put enough pressure (financial support and voter support) on our politicians to oust King if they really, really want him gone? These are the facts of life, and they certainly are unpleasant. Try not to blame me, though. I am entitled to my opinions, and to report what I see and hear, and to call things the way I see them. Just as you are. Sincerely, Chris Wendt |
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Post by rr on Nov 15, 2013 21:59:56 GMT -5
Not blaming you or anyone else - just find it frustrating and I agree about all our opinions, they should be heard. Seems to me though that are a lot of people being outspoken about the negative aspects and unwilling to listen to the positives. If King resigns because there are some that are very vocally against this then they might as well fold up the whole thing and throw it away - there's no coming back from a public execution like that. Do you believe if he resigns his replacement will behave any differently or turn their back on what's already being implemented?
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Post by Chris_Wendt on Nov 16, 2013 9:35:17 GMT -5
First, let's not presume any particular outcome. Our discussion, this conversation, is friendly and meant to be mutually informative. We participants and readers, here, are not the adjudicators nor are we the prime movers in this theater of war. Secondly, as to my personal feelings, and now we are definitely in the realm of what I think should and what I would like to see ultimately happen, is that both King and Tisch should be removed and replaced. I personally feel that Tisch is King's puppet master, that King's decision to unleash the 2013 Assessments two full years ahead of the nationally* agreed upon schedule was actually Tisch's decision. I fault (my personal opinion) the remainder of the Board of Regents for allowing Chancellor Tisch to have assumed the ROLE of the puppet master over the Commissioner, reducing King to the status of a puppet. This is much akin, and all too familiar, to some situation where a forceful personality on a school board starts bossing around the Superintendent, stepping out of the Trustee's policy-making role and into the realm of operations, where BoE Trustees (and Regents) do not belong. In terms of the conflict, the battle in the trenches, please recognize that the Commissioner and Tisch, along with her posse, the Regents, are up against the most powerful union in the country, NYSUT. They (NYSUT) have specific issues with CCC and APPR which may be different from the reasons of many other interest groups who oppose CCC. But that does NOT mean the NYSUT motives are at odds with most other positions in opposition to CCC, and by extension, in opposition to King, and following the strings attached to King, likewise in opposition to his puppet master, Tisch. The various interests that are aligned against CCC, or, are against CCC and King, or, are against CCC, King and Tisch don't care about the tactics used by any of the other combatants, just as long as CCC, and/or King, and/or Tisch are vanquished at the end of war. Now, looking at this strategically, looking at this with your concerns in mind, but still looking at this through the myopic lens of my personal opinion, the only sure win for King is to grow a pair, to stand-up to Tisch (presuming support for himself exists among the other Regents) and to forestall further implementation of the CC Assessments (falling back in-line with the PARCC Assessment schedule until 2014-15), and delaying APPR until the CC Assessments have been fully implemented, adjusted and "proven" in 2015 or 2016. Tisch is a willful person, a force to be reckoned with, but also a person with unrealistic dreams coupled with ham-handed, bullying tactics. She could go into melt-down, or face serious consequences from this debacle if she does not back-off and let King fix it...before spring. Either way, King and Tisch seem compromised in their roles. I don't think they get it, yet. But that is on them, isn't it. Who would replace either of them? I think Roger Tilles would be a good Chancellor, but I am not sure he has the support to be appointed at this time. However, until Tisch resigns or is removed, it will not be possible to gage support for Tilles or anyone else, as outward public support will remain with Tisch as long as she sits in the Chair. A far as the Commissioner to replace King, I hold no expectations or nominees. Well, except perhaps Michael Bloomberg, if he would even ever consider such a role. That's my take. Do not lose faith in the Common Core, and especially do not lose faith in the Wantagh Public Schools. Sincerely, Chris Wendt * Read about PARCC Timeline (link) and SBA (schedule on top of front page) (link) consortia here. NY is a member of the PARCC (consortium). Common Core-adopting states generally belong to either PARCC or SBA, and BOTH PARCC & SBA have scheduled implementation of CC Assessments for 2014-15. New York jumped the gun by TWO FULL YEARS! |
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