AP Courses...

[Chris_Wendt]

...are in the news again.

Remembering that "AP" is an acronym for Advanced Placement, the intent of offering/taking AP courses is to garner for the student advanced placement in college. The idea was that AP courses would satisfy prerequisites for 101-level courses, allowing students to start their college work with higher level coursework, thus potentially shortening the path to attainment of a degree, and reducing tuition costs.

But as happens all too frequently with programs designed to reduce the commitment of time (in the actual pursuit of learning) and to decrease the cost of education, AP courses have become commonplace, losing some, much, or all of their cachet with colleges and universities. The degree of deflation of the prestige formerly attributed to AP courses varies by institution. But Dartmouth summed-up the current perspective best:

"We want a Dartmouth education to be provided by Dartmouth."

Of course, there is a strong financial undertone to this emerging trend among colleges. But consider the educational converse of Dartmouth's point of view: can Wantagh High really deliver a Dartmouth education?

I am not taking sides in this discussion. This is both a market (marketing) conversation, and an important consideration of the raison d'etre of public schools.

The market (marketing) aspects will have to be worked through and worked out by the market: colleges, and, their prospective students. The raison d'etre issue could blossom into an argument of constitutional proportions, however. The taxpayers of New York State are obliged to pay for (and the schools are obliged to provide) a "sound, basic education". Offering AP Courses at taxpayer expense does not sound very basic to me.

Extrapolating the "basic" education discussion further, consider the likelihood the taxpayers are funding "AP" courses which may not result in the "advanced placement" of the students taking those courses. Especially not at Dartmouth. That would amount to spending taxpayer money for no real purpose, I mean, other than for what used to be prestige, real or imagined.

Then there is the AP coursework itself. I am not very up-to-date on many AP courses, but I have some idea about AP World History. My impression of that course is that it is more of an intense preparation for participating as a contestant on Jeopardy or playing Trivial Pursuit, than it is about learning world history. It is rich in factoids (names, places, dates), but overly broad and too sweeping in its scope, yet apparently laser-focused on the AP Exam and far less so on imparting an fundamental understanding of the motivations and intricacies of peoples, nations, and their leaders. Just my opinion, but possibly similar or even identical to the opinion of the decision makers at Dartmouth.

Regards,

Chris Wendt

Edited for clarity 7-12-13

[Chris_Wendt]

I have received a number of responses to this topic, mostly dealing with the issues of student age and readiness for taking either the AP courses or the AP tests. One response pointed to economics (money) as being the primary reason some universities are declining to offer advanced placement to students who have taken and passed AP exams.

Looking further into the AP World History course and exam, I thought it was important to do the math.

• AP World History covers 10,013 years of history in a single 200-day high school year.
• the AP World History Test consists of 70 multiple-choice questions and three essays. That is roughly 143 years covered by each multiple-choice question.
• In 2011, the number of choices for each multiple-choice question was reduced from 5 to 4, making it easier to deduce correct answers.
• At the same time, the 1/4-point penalty for guessing a wrong answer was eliminated, meaning guessing wrong now carries no penalty
• 55 minutes are allotted for the multiple-choice questions, or about 47 seconds per question which is a very long time for questions with only four possible choices, only one of which is the right choice
• Of the three essays, one is a "DBQ" (data-based question) for which reading material is supplied upon which students are to base their response; the question requires NO INDEPENDENT KNOWLEDGE of HISTORY in order for the student to answer it correctly
• In prior years the period of history to be covered by the DBQ was announced in advance of the test; this will no longer be the case effective in the next school year.

I can appreciate the perspective of Dartmouth especially about the AP World History course offered to high school students: this is not a college-level scholarly investigation of this particular subject, and therefore not worthy of advanced placement consideration regardless of the score.

Oddly, two factors are coming into play simultaneously concerning the AP World History course. A. the number of students taking this course (which is really a "survey" rather than a serious study of World History) is increasing, and B. the test methodology has been relaxed since 2011 as I indicated above. What have the result been?

Final Score of 5:

• 2010......9.8%
• 2011......9.4%
• 2012......6.9%
• 2013......5.7%

A precipitous decline in "Mastery" scores!

Final Score of 2:

• 2010......24.2%
• 2011......24.7%
• 2012......29.6%
• 2013......30.4%

A sharp rise in essentially worthless scores.

Quote of the day:

" ...the reason for low percentages of 5s is due to AP World History being a college-level course; many Sophomores are not yet writing at that level because it is many students' first AP class. Of the 2012 results, 10.44% of all seniors who take the exam receive a 5, compared to only 6.62% of sophomores."

-Trevor Packer, the head of AP Grading, 2012

As colleges put the big squeeze on AP acceptance, I think even the 10.44% odds of scoring a 5 is a big gamble to make on AP World History. If students and their parents want to put their own money at risk, then who would care, other than those students and their parents? But the money being bet on the efficacy of AP World History as a means of attaining advanced college placement is taxpayer funding, and I don't think that is the wisest way for our school district to be spending tax dollars.

Regards

Chris Wendt
[e-mail]

[Chris_Wendt]

Continuing the quest for understanding the state of Advance Placement courses in the U.S. and attempting to bring this down to the local level where it may make better sense, I uncovered a trove of statistical information and some salient facts that taken together render the statistics rather useless. (A person may have come to think that something as "prestigious" and certainly trendy as AP courses would be supported with really sound even irrefutable statistical data. But sadly such is not the case.)

Here are those pesky salient facts about AP that I found perplexing and which frustrated my analysis:

• A student does not have to take an AP course in order to sit for and get credit for an AP exam.
• Students who take an AP course do NOT have to sit for the AP Exam for that course; AP students who do not sit for exams are not tallied-in to AP statistical reports
• SED data on AP courses and results are incomplete and inaccurate (school/grade level enrollment data is inconsistent with other SED enrollment data not related to AP data; some schools (e.g., Bellmore-JFK) AP Performance data are entirely missing from the SED AP database

However, having done some more math relevant to AP courses, I would like to share it, with the proviso that there are incongruities in relating the data.

There are four (4) comparisons following among the ten closest neighboring high schools in the our area, with Bellmore-JFK omitted because no AP data has been published by SED or AP for that high school.

First, AP Students: what percentage of each school's Grade 10-12 enrollment sat for AP tests.

• Bethpage.......43.0%
  
• Calhoun.........40.7%
  
• Mepham........ 40.4%
  
• MacArthur..... 40.0%
  
• Massapequa...36.6%
  
• Seaford.........28.7%
  
• Wantagh......28.6%
  
• Division.........26.8%
  
• Island Trees...25.9%
  
• Plainedge.......25.6%

NOTE: Some students who took an AP course may not have sat for the AP Test for that course.

(Continued in following post to this thread....)

[Chris_Wendt]

Moving along with the AP performance comparisons among the ten nearest high schools to Wantagh, the second is the average number of AP Tests taken per AP Student*:

• Massapequa... 2.14
• Mepham........ 1.97
  
• Bethpage....... 1.90
• Division......... 1.89
  
• Calhoun......... 1.85
• Island Trees... 1.83
  
• Plainedge....... 1.80
• Seaford......... 1.69
• Wantagh...... 1.65
• MacArthur...... 1.64

* Keep in mind that some "AP Students" elected not to sit for each AP test for which thay may have taken the AP course, and, that not all AP Test takers may have actually taken the AP course for which they were tested.

The third comparison is the percentage of "passing" AP scores as a percentage of the AP Tests actually taken. Passing scores are 3-4-5.

• Wantagh......75.9%
  
• Calhoun.........75.7%
  
• Seaford.........75.5%
  
• Mepham........ 75.4%
  
• Island Trees...74.3%
  
• Plainedge.......74.2%
  
• Division.........72.4%
  
• Bethpage.......69.0%
  
• Massapequa...68.3%
  
• MacArthur..... 65.5%
  

Here, Wantagh clearly outshines all the others. But the results are not disaggregated by finite scores (how many 5's, how many 4's and how many 3's), and there is no way to tell how many would-be "AP Students" who took AP Courses did not sit for the tests (to avoid receiving a failing score (1-2)) in any of the schools being compared.

The last comparison I want to share is what I call the comparative "AP Index". This is the percentage of passing scores on AP tests taken compounded with the percentage of the Grades 10-12 enrollment represented as AP Students in each school. The higher the number, the better in terms of potential efficacy of the AP courses in that school, or, the "soundness" of the AP program, as being part of a "sound, basic education".

• Calhoun.........30.8%
  
• Mepham........ 30.5%
• Bethpage.......29.7%
  
• MacArthur..... 26.2%
  
• Massapequa...25.0%
  
• Seaford.........21.70%
  
• Wantagh......21.67%
  
• Division.........19.4%
  
• Island Trees...19.3%
  
• Plainedge.......19.0%

You will note the localized ranking of the schools by AP Index mirrors the ranking of the percentage that AP Students are of the Grades 10-12 enrollment. Again, the caveat applies that "AP Students" only includes students who have taken AP tests, and does not include students who took an AP course but did not sit for the AP test. But it does include any student who took an AP Test without also having taken the corresponding AP course.

This last comparison is meant to indicate the relative soundness or efficacy of the AP programs among our neighboring high schools. Look, see...we are on an order of magnitude of one out of 3, one out of 4, and one out of five or six of enrolled grade 10-12 students taking and passing AP exams. You be the judge of the soundness of those results. Hey, it's your tax money that is paying for these AP courses, AP textbooks, AP materials, AP teachers and for the AP tests!

Feel free to contact me at [e-mail]

Regards,

Chris Wendt

Edited for clarity, grammar - CW

[apteacher]

I'm not sure I see your point about the expense of AP courses. Most of them replace existing courses, especially the history courses. A student who takes AP World History would take the AP exam and the regents exam at the end of the 2 year sequence. A student taking AP US History would take the AP exam and the regents exam at the end of the one year course. The AP class is replacing an honors or regents course. So in that aspect, it is cost neutral.

One of the issues NY schools face is the lower standards on the current regents examinations. Once NYSED "required" all students to earn regents diplomas, all tests students need to graduate became significantly easier. There may be issues with some AP curricula and their corresponding exams, but they are clearly written at a much higher level than the regents exams. This is why most districts are encouraging more students to enroll. The only viable alternative to AP courses is the IB program, which is much more rigorous but extremely expensive.

I find it interesting when the fancy colleges do not allow credit for AP courses. I would be surprised if there was a student enrolled in Dartmouth that did not take multiple AP courses. They take the courses, and the high schools offer them, because they are the most cost efficient standardized college level courses available.

The data you have cited demonstrates that Wantagh is behind the curve as far as encouraging their students to take the most challenging courses available. Of course Wantagh is at the top of percentage taking/passing. They only let the top students in. The current trend is open enrollment. When 98% of your students earn regents diplomas, it's no longer a goal, it's an achievement. You need a new goal. Districts in this position picked one, AP courses.

When my district moved to open enrollment and expansion, I was skeptical. When 10th graders started taking AP classes, I was even more skeptical. It worked, and it still does! This was around 10 years ago!

This is one of the issues we have in Wantagh due to the lack of continuous leadership. Parents think about when they went to school. They think these classes are only for the smartest kids in school. The times have changed. Why does MacArthur High School have considerably more AP Scholars than Wantagh High School? Are the students up the road smarter? No, it's because of open enrollment.

If you're concerned about wasted resources, I suggest you investigate the college credit courses that Wantagh seems to be so fond of. There are almost no standards in these classes!

Obviously, I'm a proponent of AP courses and open enrollment. I've heard this cost argument before. You're replacing one class with another so what's the difference? I guess the real question would be, what would you replace them with?

[Chris_Wendt]

I am glad that I stayed with this topic. APTeacher queried:

"I'm not sure I see your point about the expense of AP courses."

Neither am I!

I have received a good deal of feedback which has caused me to dig deeper, and to consider this subject from several perspectives. Early on, I issued a disclaimer about my not taking sides, but the mere digging up and reporting certain statistics cannot help but give the appearance of choosing or favoring one position over another. It is not my intention to pick a fight over AP. I have nine grandchildren for whom I want the best education possible, so it seems appropriate to me to shake the AP Tree (and the IB Tree, and some other program trees) and learn for myself what is what.

For today's installment I want to focus directly upon Wantagh AP information, and especially in light of AP Comparison #3... the percentage of "passing" AP scores as a percentage of the AP Tests actually taken. Passing scores are 3-4-5.

• Wantagh......75.9%
  
• Calhoun.........75.7%
  
• Seaford.........75.5%
  
• Mepham........ 75.4%
  
• Island Trees...74.3%
  
• Plainedge.......74.2%
  
• Division.........72.4%
  
• Bethpage.......69.0%
  
• Massapequa...68.3%
  
• MacArthur..... 65.5%

I have been advised that:

"...the policy at WHS is that every student enrolled in the AP courses must sit for the AP exam; barring any significant medical issues (thankfully none this year), and therefore, all AP students have indeed taken all AP exams for any AP course within which they were enrolled. This is not the policy at every high school. Moreover, our add/drop policy is more stringent than many of our counterparts and therefore with the exception of the beginning of the school year when 'level' changes are permitted, thereafter, students are not permitted to drop down out of our advanced courses. " (Emphasis added).

This is indeed excellent news, because not only does Wantagh High stand-out proudly from all of our neighboring high schools, but Wantagh's results are pure, meaning, they are a true reflection of the AP students and of our AP Program. A point of pride, for certain.

There are two other points of information I received that deserve immediate discussion:

• Wantagh parents, not taxpayers, pay for the AP Exams
• the policy of taxpayers paying for AP (and college-level) textbooks is going into effect in Wantagh with this school year (2013-14); although this is a District Policy, it actually is the adoption of an SED mandate, to bring consistency across the state about who pays for what, when.

I want to end this edition on a positive note, which is that we should be very pleased with the AP program in Wantagh.

In the next edition I want to talk about Wantagh's advanced course offerings, and to discuss additional feedback I received, along with some of the other points raised by AP Teacher (prior post).

Regards,

Chris Wendt

[Chris_Wendt]

AP Teacher noted very appropriately:

"...when the fancy colleges do not allow credit for AP courses. I would be surprised if there was a student enrolled in Dartmouth that did not take multiple AP courses. They take the courses, and the high schools offer them, because they are the most cost efficient standardized college level courses available."

This is a good synopsis of the market or marketing discussion about AP courses. Regardless of any college's AP acceptance or credit-granting policy, there is a widespread belief or understanding among parents of prospective college students that taking (and passing) AP courses is de rigueur for ultimate acceptance into any highly competitive or highly desirable college.

What is behind this trend? AP Teacher pointed to a significant impetus for taking AP courses, especially among NY students:

"One of the issues NY schools face is the lower standards on...regents examinations. Once NYSED "required" all students to earn regents diplomas, all tests...became significantly easier. There may be issues with some AP curricula and their corresponding exams, but they are clearly written at a much higher level than the regents exams. This is why most districts are encouraging more students to enroll...."

I believe this to be generally true, and would frame this as, NYS having dumbed-down the Regents exams, AP has become the new standard of educational excellence (in NY). No other state ever had Regents Exams, which used to carry significant weight with college admissions offices. So the adoption of AP as a standard for many high schools in the nation is understandable.

AP Teacher also summed this up nicely:

"Wantagh is at the top of percentage taking/passing. They only let the top students in. The current trend is open enrollment. When 98% of your students earn regents diplomas, it's no longer a goal, it's an achievement. You need a new goal. Districts in this position picked one, AP courses."

The danger, of course, is that with "open enrollment" in AP courses becoming ever more widespread, that the same thing could happen to AP courses/tests as has happened to the once-vaunted NY Regents Exams. Serious devaluation of the "standard" of excellence. If that were to happen to AP, then, as pointed out, IB could become the next ersatz "standard of excellence", raising the price, if not the actual bar for attainment.

To me, the AP World History course and test may be signals of potential devaluation of the prestige (real or perceived) of the AP Program. I will discuss this in a future edition, here.

Time and space precluded my addressing Wantagh's advanced course offerings today. Coming soon!

Stay cool!

Chris Wendt

[apteacher]

A few more items on this topic:

This is from the curriculum guide on the Wantagh School District web site:

AP Language and Composition
Prerequisite:
--Must have and maintain an 85% average or better in 11th grade “H” track English with no grade lower than 80%-OR – Must have and maintain a 90% average or better in 11th grade “R” track English with no grade lower than 85% AND must have 11th grade teacher’s recommendation, THEN Department Supervisor’s approval.
--Must have and maintain an overall average of 85% or better in high school (12 quarters).
--Must agree to comply with the attendance policy.

This is crazy. I'm not sure I understand what it means! First of all, AP English Language is one of the easier AP courses. It is a good class for a wider range of students to take as their first AP class. I believe Wantagh offers this class to this to 12th graders. Most districts offer it in 11th grade and the students take the AP exam and the regents exam as well. Basically they're saying "don't take this course unless we ask you to." The guide is full of these convoluted prerequisites. What this guide is implying is "we don't think you're good enough, so don't bother." This was a common thing in education many years ago. Most schools have evolved to "try your best to reach your potential." If a wrestling coach told one of his kids "don't bother showing up at the meet this week, you'll never win" he'd be roundly criticized. Apparently, this is par for the course in the English department. I would also like to add that no one refers to tracking anymore. The labels tend to limit student potential.

The current trend in education, in districts similar to Wantagh, is to create more opportunities for their students, not limit them. Rockville Center has been advancing almost all of their students in 8th grade to take regents level math and science courses. The Plainedge school district does the same thing. I'm not advocating for this, but I am in favor of moving in this direction. The rationale is that it creates more opportunities for students to take AP classes in high school.

When you have open enrollment, it doesn't mean that everyone will take the courses. If a student wants to do it, then why would someone stop them? The goal of the school district is to prepare kids for college. If a kid takes an AP class and gets a 2 on the exam is that a failure? We're talking about teenagers here. There is something to be learned from the experience of taking AP classes, even if that lesson is I need to work harder. Kids can surprise you. But you'll never be surprised if they're not given the opportunity. Instead of creating roadblocks like these arcane prerequisites, we should be tearing them down!

Chris, I wanted to thank you for creating this thread. This particular topic is one of the reasons I registered on this board (hence the screen name). I also read more that I post. Hopefully more people will enter the "cone of silence." I look forward to reading your next post.

[Chris_Wendt]

Topic: Enrollment Eligibility for AP Courses.

AP Teacher favors a concept of open enrollment for AP Courses, and complains about Wantagh's policy as being difficult to understand (prior posts, this thread).
Wantagh's published AP eligibility standards vary by department, but each department requires teacher recommendation at a minimum.
Some require Department Head approval, and certain AP courses have various prerequisites (prior coursework to have been completed) and performance (minimum grade average) criteria. Having reviewed each of these standards (hyperlink to WHS Curriculum Guide), I find them all to be reasonable, and generally comport with the College Board's published intention that students applying for AP courses should be "academically prepared".

” AP® Equity and Access Policy:
The College Board strongly encourages educators to make equitable access a guiding principle for their AP programs by giving all willing and academically prepared students the opportunity to participate in AP.… The College Board also believes that all students should have access to academically challenging course work before they enroll in AP classes, which can prepare them for AP success.”

On the flip side of that would be (my personal perspective) that placing students in AP classes who do not possess the maturity, work ethic, intellectual capacity, or academic preparation to succeed could adulterate the class/course experience for those students who do possess the maturity, work ethic, intellectual capacity and academic preparation for that class/course.

However, and in keeping with the College Board’s intent “that all students should have access to academically challenging course work before they enroll in AP classes”, two things are true in Wantagh:

• We offer a wide variety of rigorous ("academically challenging") courses
• There are very few (socioeconomic) barriers to our students participating and succeeding in school

In a real sense Wantagh does have an Open Enrollment period for AP Courses. I apologize for seeming to be glib about this, but the Wantagh AP Open Enrollment period begins at about the fourth grade, or maybe fifth or possibly sixth, yet definitely by the seventh or eighth grades, certainly by ninth grade, but even for some by their sophomore or even junior years. Open Enrollment for AP starts at that point in each individual student's academic life where he/she starts taking their studies and grades seriously, where they knuckle-down and work harder and more purposefully in class and on their homework, and, where they begin to fulfill their individual intellectual "potential".

Not all students will go this route; some students will not go far enough; yet many students do and ultimately succeed, as evidenced by Wantagh attaining the #1 AP Passing Rate among the ten closest high schools.

There is another different, proven and exemplary model for differentiating among students vying for higher or more demanding academic or educational placement. That is the firm policy of admission-by-testing-only to the NY City prestigious "Specialized High Schools" (hyperlink). This seemingly controversial admissions policy has predictably been challenged on constitutional grounds and has twice been affirmed by the NY Court of Appeals, the state's highest court. Of course the huge difference between NY City and Wantagh is that NY City is the largest school system in the nation with infinitely greater financial resources than we possess, oh, and a million more students to educate in 1,695 more schools which they operate.

But little Wantagh does a very credible job, and we provide quite a few academically challenging opportunities to students who want and pursue them. These include AP courses, but also college level courses.

"Our partnerships with Syracuse, LIU-CW Post, Adelphi and Molloy remain strong and while (WHS) is still in the process of culling the data for this year's students, 94% of last year's graduates successfully completed at least one College Level or AP course before graduating from WHS."

(Hyperlink to WHS College-level courses HERE)

I will end here for today, as I have a train to catch. As always, feedback is welcome, and you can reach out to me at [e-mail] for additional information.

Regards,

Chris Wendt

[Chris_Wendt]

First, there is an important housekeeping item to share. There were two items that each served as an impetus for starting this thread. One was a news story about major institutions changing their policies about accepting and granting credit or advanced placement for AP courses. Among those institutions cited was Columbia University.

Well, as is the case in Wantagh High, Columbia University's AP course (acceptance) policy varies by department (or "school"). A correction has recently been published indicating that some departments (schools) within Columbia will still accept and grant either credit or advance placement for some AP courses for some students.

This development led me to attempt some further research on college acceptance policies. The College Board has an interactive search engine that allows prospective students to ascertain the AP test score acceptance policy of practically any school in the country. Using the AP search function, students can learn:

• Does the school grant credit ("C") for AP test scores?
  
• Does the school award advance placement ("P") for AP test scores?
  
• For which specific AP courses is credit ("C") and/or advance placement ("P") awarded?
• What is the minimum AP test score required for either C or P, and if there is a sliding scale based upon AP scores, what it that scale?
• Is there an equivalent course ("Q") which an acceptable AP test score will qualify?

Parenthetical letters--C.P,Q--are my own designators for the research).

There are thousands of colleges and universities in the US, and an exhaustive study would not be practical. However I did learn a number of things.

• Most colleges accept AP test scores for something other than admission decisions
  
• I did not find published policies that said admission decisions are based on specific numbers of AP courses taken, nor upon specific AP scores attained.
  
• Most colleges that accept AP scores grant both credit ("C") and placement ("P") but...
• Some schools grant either C or P but not both
• Some schools grant neither C nor P, but the inference is the AP scores are used as part of the admissions decision-making process
• Most colleges accept some AP courses but not all
• Colleges have different minimum AP score requirements for different AP courses
• Some colleges have very liberal credit-granting policies for AP scores, while others are very demanding and stingy with granting credits
• If there is no Q course at a college corresponding to a particular AP course, then there is no advance placement possible in most of those cases
• There is significant incongruity between the results returned using the AP acceptance search engine and individual school's websites information about their acceptance of AP scores and for what purposes (C or P).

The AP search engine relies on a database which is apparently not kept up-to-date. Prospective students could be seriously misled if they relied too heavily upon the search results from AP. A good example is Yeshiva University in NYC. The AP search engine indicates no credit and no advance placement is provided by Yeshiva. But the Yeshiva website indicates that both credit and placement are available, except for core courses which vary by major. Of course, the best advice I would offer is to utilize the Guidance Department at WHS.

In a later edition I will publish some of the results from the AP search engine along with some editorial commentary.

I also still want to talk about the AP World History course which was the second impetus for starting this blog. Fortunately, in my opinion, Wantagh does not offer this particular course. More later.

Regards,

Chris Wendt

[Chris_Wendt]

Today I had planned to publish some representative results concerning colleges that accept AP scores to grant credit and/or advance placement, along with some that do neither. In compiling the list three schools gave me pause to do further research:

• Columbia University (which tripped all over its own announcement similar to Dartmouth's "We want a Dartmouth education to be provided by Dartmouth" statement)
• Dartmouth (which started me writing this blog with that arrogant statement)
• Yeshiva, whose website directly contradicted the information provided by the College Board's AP acceptance policy search engine.

As reported to you previously, Columbia is comprised of several major departments and colleges (schools), and similar to Wantagh High, each of these departments may have different policies relevant to AP courses, and those policies may change over time. In the case of Columbia, some departments will no longer grant credit or advance placement for AP scores, while others will continue to do so; AP scores will, of course, be considered as part of the admissions policy--do you get in or not--along with numerous other factors. Columbia has published frankly embarrassing bulletins concerning their AP acceptance policy which boil down to the right hand not knowing that there was a left hand, much less knowing what the left hand was doing, or thinking about AP scores.

Dartmouth was surprised at the reaction to their original notice changing their AP acceptance policy, and frankly, I think embarrassed by that blunt statement about who can provide a "Dartmouth education". Dartmouth, too, has done some fumfering in the media since their original announcement.

POSTED ON FEBRUARY 8, 2013 BY OFFICE OF PUBLIC AFFAIRS:
"On October 29, 2012, Dartmouth’s Faculty of Arts & Sciences voted to modify its Advanced Placement (AP) policy. While AP exam scores will continue to be a valuable tool for evaluating applicants and used for course placement for incoming students, beginning with the class of 2018 they will no longer be used as credit toward graduation. The policy modification set off a national conversation about how colleges and universities should use AP exams.

Dean of the Faculty of Arts & Sciences Michael Mastanduno issued a statement explaining that the change was rooted in the belief that Dartmouth students should take full advantage of faculty expertise and the unique academic resources that characterize a Dartmouth education.

Dartmouth’s decision will apply to undergraduate students entering the College beginning in fall 2014. The change will be formally reviewed three years from now."

Dartmouth's Dean of Faculty issued this statement:
"Statement Regarding the Advanced Placement Policy Modification
Dartmouth has received questions about a modification in our policy for use of Advanced Placement (AP) exams. AP exams are a valuable tool for evaluating applicants and they will continue to be used for course placement. Incoming students with qualifying AP scores will continue to be able to place out of certain introductory courses or be exempted from certain requirements, consistent with the original purpose of the scores. Beginning in fall 2014, students admitted to Dartmouth will no longer receive credit toward graduation for AP scores. As previously announced, we will re-evaluate the decision after three years to ensure our students are getting the best possible Dartmouth education.

Our policy modification is the outcome of many years of faculty discussion and dialogue regarding the nature and scope of coursework at Dartmouth. Ultimately the decision to modify the policy was made to require our students to take full advantage of the faculty expertise and unique academic resources that characterize a Dartmouth educational experience. While members of the faculty’s Committee on Instruction did review available peer-reviewed research, the faculty’s final decision was based on the experience of Dartmouth faculty over many years and the curricular needs of Dartmouth departments and programs.

It is also important to note that this modification does not alter our strong commitment to affordability; Dartmouth’s need-blind financial aid program currently meets 100 percent of demonstrated need. As is the case now, the small number of Dartmouth students who are interested in accelerating their time to degree completion will still be able to do so by increasing their course load so that they can graduate one term early.

Regarding an informal Psychology Department experiment that has been mentioned in press reports, we would like to make clear that it was undertaken by a single academic department for its own particular purposes. It was neither peer-reviewed research nor undertaken to be a general statement about the value of AP courses, and should not be characterized as such.

Michael Mastanduno
Dean of Faculty of Arts & Sciences"

It is most important to note the emphasis remains on evaluating prospective students' AP scores for admission to Dartmouth, even if granting credit mat not be in the offing. I chuckled when I read about their promise to review this policy in three years, which is after the Class of 2018's Sophomore Year. I'd bet the review takes place sooner.

Yeshiva University (NYC), also mentioned earlier, points to a similar but more intrinsic issue for students trying to use College Board's AP acceptance policy search engine for planning their high school course work and their college applications. The College Board got Yeshiva's policy basically wrong on their search engine, stating with two red lights that neither credit nor advance placement were granted by Yeshiva. But the Yeshiva AP acceptance policy (Yeshiva website) is even more convoluted than the Wantagh High AP enrollment policy. To be fair, Yeshiva is a religious school, and their policy, though at first appearing complicated, does make sense taken as a whole. The cautionary tale, of course, is not to rely very heavily on the College Board AP acceptance policy search engine.

Still to come: a sampling of college AP acceptance policies, and, some discussion about the AP World History course.

Chris Wendt

[Chris_Wendt]

As promised, today I have a sampling of colleges AP score acceptance policies for granting credit or advance placement, or both, or neither. The survey sample was purely subjective on my part. Although it is the official policy of the College Board that a an AP score of 3 is "Passing", many colleges require scores of 4 or even scores of 5 for granting credit or advance placement; this varies by school, by department, by course, and by major, and, decisions can be made on a case-by-case basis.

From the College Board website/College Search search engine:

“You have...
3,977 college options.”

For researching college AP credit acceptance and placement policies there is no useful filtering function, and summary information is not provided.

Some Colleges Accepting AP Test Scores for both credit & advance placement, per the AP Search Engine:
Adelphi
Molloy
Hofstra*
SUNY Old Westbury
SUNY Alfred*
SUNY Farmingdale*
SUNY Binghamton*
SUNY Stony Brook*
LIU CW Post
NYU
Syracuse
Cornell*
Boston University*
Harvard*
Northeastern*
Yale*
Providence College*
Fairfield U*
Holy Cross*
Fordham*
Pace*
Rutgers*
Duke#
Stevens Institute*
American U*
Northwestern*
Johns Hopkins*
Georgetown*
George Washington U*
Notre Dame*
Stanford*
MIT
U Penn* (Compare Penn' which grants 1 measly credit for an AP score of 4 with Penn State which lavishes 3 credits for an AP score of 4).
Penn State* (Compare Penn' which grants 1 measly credit for an AP score of 4 with Penn State which lavishes 3 credits for an AP score of 4).

* Additional discussion re AP World History to follow, below, and in a later edition.

Some Colleges that do not offer both credit and advance placement for AP scores:
Duquesne...credit, but no placement; score of 4 required for 3 credits
Cal Tec....no credit or placement
Brown*...placement, but no credit; score of 5 required
Boston College*...placement, but no credit; score of 4 required
Tufts...no credit or placement
Dowling College...credit, but no placement
Brigham Young...credit, but no placement

* Additional discussion re AP World History for these and other schools. AP World History is either excluded from the list of AP courses for which credit is granted at these (*) schools, or the school (*) does not have an equivalent world history course for which the AP course/score can be substituted for advance placement. Not to single-out AP World History, but, based on the schools I subjectively decided to survey, either World History is not a significant factor in their curricula, or, they do not consider the AP World History Course to be relevant to their construct of world history. I will address this course, specifically its efficacy, in a later edition of this blog.

# Special comment concerning Duke University. See AP search engine result at: (hyperlink to AP Search Engine result = Duke University)

14 AP courses require a score of 5 to be considered for advance placement
26 AP courses require a score of 4 to be considered for advance placement
1 AP course, Calculus B/C allows a score of 3 to be considered for advance placement with only one equivalent course to replace
No credits are listed for any AP course or score on the AP search engine result for Duke.

Now see the Duke website for acceptance of AP scores at: (hyperlink to Duke University website)
The bottom line is that Duke has a complex policy for advance placement based on AP scores that varies both by department and by major. I am sure Duke is not alone in this regard, but the presentation of this policy between the AP search engine and Duke’s website was worthy of noting as an example of the potential for confusion and misdirection between individual school websites and the AP College Acceptance search engine.

Special Discussions: Dartmouth College, Columbia University and Yeshiva, see previous edition of this thread. The text of the original article has been twice revised, now reading in relevant part:

Quoting:

“ Some prestigious colleges have stopped giving academic credit for AP tests scores.
Brown doesn’t. Several departments at Columbia don't*, and most recently, Dartmouth said it won’t let AP students skip ahead to an early graduation.
“We want a Dartmouth education to take place at Dartmouth,” says school spokesman Justin Anderson.

End of quote.

The asterisk (*) comes from this disclaimer issued by the real Columbia University:

Quoting:

*CORRECTION: An earlier version of this story said Columbia doesn’t award college credit for AP exams. The statement was based on information from a Columbia admissions officer, who misspoke. Under certain circumstances, some departments at Columbia give credit for AP exams, thus reducing the number of courses those students are required to take in order to graduate. The text has been revised.

End of quote.

A previous edition discussed the fumfering at Dartmouth about their AP policy changes.

That’s all for today. Start thinking about how AP fits into the transition between high school and college, and what the relationship is between AP and the Core Curriculum. We’ll talk about those topics soon. Still to come, discussion of the AP World History Course.

Regards,

Chris Wendt

Edited for clarity on several points, 07/30/2013 10:40AM

[Chris_Wendt]

I wanted to get back to this thread and start to wrap it up. First, for today, let's put this in a framework and discuss some important transitions, of which AP courses are an important piece, but not the entire picture.

The framework extends through middle class America, starting with the Baby Boom Generation, the leading edge of whom are turning 67 this year. Due to the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, the economy, and the attendant costs of living here, many of us Boomers are at or past normal retirement age but still working. Each of us in that situation is occupying an employment slot and probably promotional opportunities for several other, younger people.

Think of this as a food chain, with the bottom of the chain being recent college graduates, or even high school students looking for work. Newsday carried a feature story (link) today highlighting the large percentage of young adults still living home with their parents due to this employment and LI cost of living paradigm.

Another aspect of the framework is the fact that many trade occupations which in decades past provided mainstay career opportunities for high school graduates are now the province of adult immigrant workers, legal or otherwise. Not many viable opportunities in carpentry, electrical, plumbing, construction, HVAC, or maintenance fields.

The next piece of the framework is glibly referred to as "productivity" by the business media, but is really an index of the extent to which technology has replaced human labor (work), and eroded or destroyed other former career opportunities up-and-down the employment food chain.

Still other facets include:

• procurement of goods and services formerly provided by Americans in America but which are now made or performed in Asia, South America, and eastern Europe, with Africa queuing-up for their turn as reliable, low-cost producers
• the general adaptation of technologies, especially communications, by the general public, essentially destroying career fields like publishing, printing, and the vaunted U.S. Postal Service, once the largest non-military employer in the country
• price stagnation for many goods and services coupled with improved life cycles for many products, reducing planned obsolescence, and the need to make replacements as often as previously
• reduced interest in and demand for careers in the military, once the largest U.S. employer.

Now let's really stir-up the stuff within this framework by adding in rapidly evolving technologies, and degeneration of the skills inventory of many young Americans, in part due to reduced opportunities to acquire meaningful real-world (non-academic) experience which is needed to develop skills, and, the state of our social fabric as evidenced by trends in lawmaking, hostile politics, and what passes for entertainment produced by our so-called entertainment industry.

Our national lawmakers foisted this "Common Core Curriculum" on our state lawmakers, who bought into it, or, who were bought-off in order to sign-on the the Common Core Curriculum. So our schools are striving mightily to adopt and adapt to the Common Core, along with the attendant assessments. We are also spending (wasting) ridiculous amounts of time and human resources on other pet federal projects like APPR (teacher evaluations).

WANTAGH'S APPR Plan is 560 PAGES long!

Regardless of the efficacy or the constitutionality of Common Core, YOUR kids are going to get taught stuff according to it. It promises to be more rigorous than the old stuff we used to teach, if not as or more efficacious than any that old stuff. Efficacious in this context means innately useful to the students.

Now let's jump in to this framework I have laid out. Kids have a number of well-know transitions to make going through the Wantagh schools:

• K to First Grade
  
• 5th Grade to Middle School
  
• 6th Grade to 7th Grade
• Middle School to High School
• High School Graduation to college

At the eighth or ninth grade, student must start to make course selections which will impact their college careers, majors, and even their vocations (life's work). Now, none of us have any control over the general high school Common Core Curriculum; it will be taught as dictated by Washington and now Albany. But, the real goal for every student is not getting along with Common Core!

The ultimate goal for YOUR kid has to include:

• Getting into College
  
• Getting into the best college for his/her career objective
  
• Mitigating the overall cost of that college education to whatever extent is possible by dint of hard work (rigor) and wise, or at least careful high school course selection

Here's the real value of AP courses: regardless of the Core Curriculum, colleges want to see AP courses on the transcript, they want to see high scores on those AP courses, and, having selected this or that college instead of some other college, the successful, or wise, or lucky student may earn college credit and or advance placement ("AP") at this, the college of his dreams, or at that, her second choice.

The challenge is for that eighth grader and those ninth graders to select courses, and especially to choose or guess at appropriate AP courses (or college level courses, Jim) BEFORE THEY KNOW WHAT THEY WANT TO BE WHEN THEY GROW-UP[/i], before they know what they want to major in in college, or even where they want to go to college.

I am going to end here today. This has potentially serious implications for "Wantagh" students beyond Wantagh High School.

Food for thought, I trust.

Chris Wendt

[Chris_Wendt]

I felt the need to do some further research into AP Courses, owing to the fact that I am beginning to really understand the potential effects of Common Core and the dumbing-up of the NY Regents Exams upon the value (real or perceived) of AP courses on high school transcripts and of passing AP scores on College Applications.

The following is by way of what's happening right now (2013-14) within the neighborhood comprised of Wantagh, Seaford, and MacArthur (Levittown) high schools.

AP courses offered by Wantagh, Seaford, and MacArthur (9 AP courses):

• AP Biology
  
• AP Calculus AB
  
• AP Calculus BC
  
• AP English Language and Composition
  
• AP English Literature and Composition
  
• AP Physics B
  
• AP Statistics
  
• AP Studio Art: 2-D Design
  
• AP United States History

AP courses offered by either Seaford or MacArthur, but not offered by Wantagh (10 AP courses):

• AP Chemistry*
  
• AP Computer Science*
  
• AP French Language*
  
• AP Human Geography
  
• AP Italian Language and Culture*
  
• AP Macroeconomics ("Economics")*
  
• AP Music Theory*
  
• AP Psychology*
  
• AP Spanish Language*
  
• AP World History

AP courses offered by Wantagh but not by both Seaford & MacArthur (5 AP courses):

• AP Art History
  
• AP Environmental Science
  
• AP European History
  
• AP Government and Politics: United States
  
• AP Studio Art: Drawing

AP Courses offered by neither Wantagh, Seaford, nor MacArthur (10 AP courses):

• AP Chinese Language & Culture
  
• AP German Language
  
• AP Government & Politics: Comparative
  
• AP Japanese Language & Culture
  
• AP Latin: Vergil
  
• AP Microeconomics
  
• AP Physics C: Electricity &Magnetism
  
• AP Physics C: Mechanics
  
• AP Spanish Literature
  
• AP Studio Art: 3-D Design

Summary Information:

• 34 AP courses are currently offered by the College Board
• 10 AP courses are not available at all among Wantagh, Seaford or MacArthur
• 14 AP courses offered in Wantagh High
• 14 AP courses offered in Seaford High
• 21 AP courses offered in MacArthur High.
• Only 9 AP courses are duplicated among the 14 in offered in each of Wantagh and Seaford; each school offers 5 AP courses NOT offered by the other.

Other Information:

• Wantagh has a pre-AP language strand intended to yield AP courses in French, Italian, and Spanish over the next two years. In other words, this is a developmental strand which will prepare and identify students eligible to take AP language courses at Wantagh.
• The College Board is changing their AP Physics courses structure in 2014, adding AP Physics 1 and AP Physics 2 (presumably in 2015), and will probably be deleting one or two, or all three of their current AP Physics courses by 2016.

I will editorialize on these findings, soon.

Regards,

Chris Wendt

* see next post in this thread

[Chris_Wendt]

* In the prior post I reported, inter alia:

AP courses offered by either Seaford or MacArthur, but not offered by Wantagh:

• AP Chemistry
• AP Computer Science
  
• AP French Language...
  
• AP Italian Language and Culture
  
• AP Macroeconomics ("Economics")
  
• AP Music Theory
  
• AP Psychology
  
• AP Spanish Language
  

To complete this information, please note that although Wantagh does not offer AP© courses with those titles, we do offer College-level (CL) courses in most of them, to wit:

• CL Chemistry by Syracuse University
• CL French by Adelphi University
• CL Italian by Adelphi University
  
• CL Economics by Syracuse University
  
• CL Psychology by Syracuse University
• CL Developmental Psychology: Childhood by LI University - CW Post
  
• CL Spanish by Adelphi University

There do not seem to be equivalent college level course offerings in Wantagh High for

• AP Computer Science
  
• AP Music Theory

I am sure the CL courses are rigorous, most likely on-par with the AP cohort. But the question is becoming, how "fungible" are CL courses as compared to AP© courses, which seem to be taking on the appearance of currency, at least in the realm of college admissions.

But the real issue revealed especially in the last two posts is NOT the equivalence or lack or equivalence between AP© and CL courses. We'll discuss what that is in the next edition.

Chris Wendt

(Edited for formatting....)

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