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Post by Phil Wendt (WHS '67) on Oct 29, 2014 17:37:29 GMT -5
Yes, I believe the engineer-flight coincided with the general population flight from the "Rust Belt" to the south due to significantly more affordable housing and lower taxes. In addition governors in those states, as well well as city and county governments offered huge tax incentives to companies to relocate there. So even if LI schools produced more engineers, could they afford to live and work in LI? I think this is more complicated than just an educational system not matching up to manufacturing demands. It's part of a larger demographic shift that is being driven and incentivized by regions elsewhere willing AND able to make adjustments in how they govern in order to attract these companies. Even if LI-trained engineers could afford to live in LI, they would be able to work elsewhere and keep significantly more of their paycheck to put into bigger homes, etc. it's a very competitive market out there whether you're a newly minted engineer looking for a job or a city/state trying to attract them. Last year Texas Governor "oops" Perry spent more time in Ca trying to lure businesses away than he did in his own state. Such is life.
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Post by Chris_Wendt on Oct 30, 2014 9:43:02 GMT -5
This (job migration, people migration) currently gaining momentum on Long Island, away from (off of) Long Island begs the question: Should schools on Long Island simply stop or just stop trying to educate people for careers in engineering? ...technology? This is not a question to which I would care to issue a pronouncement in response, without a lot more thoughtful conversation about the topic. Thoughtful and conversation being two words, with thought(fullness) coming before the conversation. Piqued.... Chris Wendt |
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Post by Phil Wendt (WHS '67) on Oct 30, 2014 23:40:41 GMT -5
Yes I agree about the need for a measured response, as this is a very complex problem. My "Initial" thoughts go more to the idea that 1) LI isn't going to go away anytime soon; and 2) What is it going to evolve into? I think one way to reframe the question is..."How are LI schools (K-College) going to match their curriculums to the "New" LI? Perhaps LI will no longer be a powerhouse of high-tech engineering, but there will always be a need for engineers, scientists, researchers and highly skilled manufacturing workers who live and work in LI and perhaps NYC. Next, will the LI education industrial complex drive this evolution or merely follow along, or worse yet, totally ignore what's happening and become even less relevant than it is today? I think without an in-depth understanding of the demographic dynamics taking place on LI it will be hard to move forward. LI is not an isolated case and one needs to spend some time looking at other geographic regions for comparison. I live 3000 miles away and have lived and worked in several different states, so it's perhaps easier for me to see a broader picture here. You are not alone, trust me! Similar migrations (I.E. "White flight") had plagued Detroit for decades and still does. But they managed to turn some of that around and have actually brought back some manufacturing back home to Detroit. But they had to go through bankruptcy to get there. Hopefully LI will not have to go through that experience. Like I said, you are not alone.
My 2 cents in advance of any more in-depth thinking on this.
Phil Wendt
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Post by Chris_Wendt on Oct 31, 2014 5:34:53 GMT -5
Phil Wendt (WHS '67) mused about... "...will the LI education industrial complex drive this evolution or merely follow along, or worse yet, totally ignore what's happening and become even less relevant than it is today?" Two words in response: Dowling College. Phil? Chris |
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Post by Phil Wendt (WHS '67) on Oct 31, 2014 13:24:14 GMT -5
Exactly! The transformation begins, and perhaps Dowling may be one of the early casualties. Change is often destructive. But LI is a huge population center and I suspect that there was always a struggle between LI the bedroom community to NYC and LI the independent engine of progress. Dowling may be the canary in the coal mine, but if memory serves it was always a little on the edge of survival. Demographic pattern changes over the years may shed more light on this. In any event, given the pressures on local governments from a changing demographic I find it difficult to believe that solutions will arise totally from and within individual school districts. What's the activists mantra..."Think globally, act locally"? Only acting locally and expecting a coordinated global solution is not tenable. What's the global plan?
Phil Wendt
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Post by Phil Wendt (WHS '67) on Nov 1, 2014 13:07:00 GMT -5
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Post by Chris_Wendt on Nov 2, 2014 9:34:44 GMT -5
This is short but good read that I would recommend to those following this thread.
Thanks to Phil, and to contributor "RR" who sent me an excellent piece about effective teaching. Too often, meaning almost always, we go through our days and weeks, months, and years, reading this piece, that book, some blogs, from which we form and reinforce our own opinions about subjects, like education. Some subjects, like education, do not lend themselves to casual opinion-forming, or partially (ill-) informed ideas and the (inappropriately but) understandably passionate arguments pro- or con- those ideas, and the many other causes celeb that arise out of all this opinion making and posturing. There are are oxen to be gored! I don't usually publish significant blogs on weekends, and today will not be an exception. Tomorrow or Tuesday I hope to have a more reasoned and provocative response to the materials sent to me by Phil and rr. Meanwhile, perhaps you can find time today or this evening to read the article (above link) about teaching, and Joel Klein's valuable perspective. If you find yourself not agreeing with, or rabidly in opposition to Klein's opinion, then consider that he ran the nation's largest public school system for 8 years, (longer than any other New York City schools chief in half a century) and you didn't. Stay tuned.... Chris Wendt |
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Post by Chris_Wendt on Nov 5, 2014 13:51:10 GMT -5
There are several kernels in this conversation, but one which I think needs more discussion was articulated well by my brother, Phil
Phil Wendt (WHS '67) mused about...
"...will the LI education industrial complex drive this evolution or merely follow along, or worse yet, totally ignore what's happening and become even less relevant than it is today?"
Here, I will go right to a prediction: The "Long Island educational industrial complex will NOT lead or drive the evolution of public education, and, worse, absent any other leadership of the sort needed here on LI, will not even follow along, because there will be nothing, in terms of evolution, to follow. Since nothing much will be happening, here, there will be nothing to ignore, either. Ergo sequitur , with nothing to lead, nothing to follow, and nothing even to ignore, the LI education industrial complex (meaning pubic education, on the one hand, and, industrial corporations, on the other) will, I predict, indeed become even less relevant than they are today..."relevant" meaning, relevance to the future context of Long Island.
Personally, I had hoped to be leading the vanguard of Baby Boomers off LI, being on the leading edge of that demographic (people born between 1946 and 1964). But circumstances have prevented my bailing out, yet. But the bigger factor in my not "leading" the flight is the fact that there are many younger Boomers who have retired at a much younger age, by dint of pensions which I do not have, by virtue of the corporate bankruptcy of my long-time airline employer several years ago. But. contrary to Phil's earlier assessment that "LI isn't going to go away anytime soon", I declare that the LI on which I and Phil and my wife, Sue grew up has already gone, does not exist any more. One bittersweet exercise on point would be to tick-off a list of major corporations that have departed LI since the sixties. I am not doing that, here, however. A different, more bitter than sweet, statement, first made in jest, seems to be coming true to some extent: that the only people who will be able to afford to live on LI in the future will be cops, teachers, and the people who mow their lawns. I mow my own lawn, and proudly profess this motto to my neighbors: "I am my own Mexican!" I guess this means that there are still some jobs that some American's can do for themselves. But I digress....
Another exception to both scenarios is the perpetuation and strengthening of the role of LI as a bedroom community to NY City. I am part of this third scenario, which has existed for about 100 years. Each morning I walk to the train, ride the train and then the subway, do my job, take the subway to the train, and then walk back to my home in the evening. No second car payment; no second car to insure or maintain, fuel, or register. No hassel with traffic, traffic accidents or traffic tickets. Walk, ride; ride, walk. Oh, and while I am riding the rails, I can relax, converse, sleep, blog, or work, to the tune of about 2 hours each day. THIS scenario will not be going away any time soon, and partially because of the convenience, the efficiency, but most of all, because JOBS IN THE CITY PAY A LOT MORE THAN JOBS ON THE ISLAND. This is critical, or it should be to many readers, here. Jobs in The City pay more because they demand more, and because they demand and pay more for what is demanded, they are highly competitive. During any given commute I find myself among most of the civilized cultures of the world, Europeans, Asians, Latin Americans, Australians, and Africans, all competing for those demanding, high-paying city jobs with the several thousand Wantaghvians who ride in on the trains as do I. A fair number of Wantagh alumni can be seen riding the LIRR to universities in The City, where I believe they receive nearly perfect preparation to compete successfully for those City jobs. But it is the very nature of the demanding competitiveness (and their location not on LI) that precludes much or any cooperative opportunities between City corporations and LI school districts. Look at that last statement another way: there are over a million students in CITY schools who could provide more efficient grist for CITY job training and career development, than could be provided to CITY corporations by LI public school students. Oh, and The City Schools have some excellent specialized (competitive magnet) high schools from which CITY companies and CITY universities can and do draw, liberally (and Liberally as well). This apparent evolution of the bedroom community scenario does NOT bespeak permanence for LI's role as a valuable bedroom community for NYC, well on into the future. Many of my fellow commuters are Boomers, many are or will be looking at retirement in the foreseeable future. Now ask yourself this: will my job (Chris Wendt's job) go to a LI High School alumnus, or, to a well-prepared young, budding engineer from Russia, or Poland, or Germany? ...or from Brooklyn, Queens, the Bronx. Manhattan. or Staten Island? Hmmmm.... Chris Wendt |
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Post by Chris_Wendt on Nov 6, 2014 13:35:09 GMT -5
Thursday's Focal point: This (foregoing) apparent evolution of the bedroom community scenario does NOT bespeak permanence for LI's role as a valuable bedroom community for NYC, well on into the future. Further elucidation has been requested. "Valuable: Adjective: 1... a : having monetary value b : worth a good price 2... a : having desirable or esteemed characteristics or qualities b : of great use or service" The role of LI as a bedroom community to NYC is a value proposition: do you get out of being a commuter from LI to NYC more "value" than the cost to you of doing so? Let's define that value proposition from the perspective of someone who does not presently reside on LI, but who has landed a job in NYC and is contemplating where to live. Here are some of the ingredients, the credits and debits so to speak: - Taxes
- Need to own a car for local transportation
- Petroleum cost (home heating, auto fuel)
- Utility cost (electric, water, phone/cable/internet service)
- Entry cost to home ownership
- Availability of rental housing
- Availability of local mass transit options
- Educational opportunities
- Availability of LIRR trains to a prospective home site
- Transit costs (LIRR & Subway/bus)
- Available Cultural and recreational activities
- Diversity and tolerance
- Alternate or alternative employment opportunities for non-commuting spouse, young adult children
Within the above milieu there are three (3) other operative equations or value relationships, namely those shared between: - Educational Opportunities, and...
- Entry Cost to home ownership;
- Entry Cost to home ownership, and...
- Taxes;
- Taxes, and...
- Educational Opportunities (completing a larger circular relationship among Educational Opportunities, the Entry cost of home ownership, taxes, and educational opportunities, etc.).
These value relationships or linkages provide opportunities for any "link" to weaken (becoming a potential point of failure), thus lowering the value, or rupturing that value proposition which, for the past 100 years, has supported the notion of LI being a valuable bedroom community for NYC.
Of course, the next point I will attempt to make is that, of all the credits in the value equation, the most vulnerable—and volatile—in my opinion, is the one called "Educational Opportunities". This key attribute can erode due to any of a number or a combination of reasons, as it may appear to be doing in Wantagh based on the last two years' crappy ELA assessment scores. This touchstone credential can even reverse itself from being a "credit" in the value equation to becoming a debit, as has been the case with several low performing public school districts on LI. In the case of credit-debit status reversal, the Apple Barrel maxim comes handily into play for contiguos neighboring school districts, the bad apples spoiling the apparent value propositions of or for their immediate neighbors. What do you think? (Did I address the query about the potential erosion of the value of LI as a bedroom community for NYC?) Actually, there are two sides to that value question, with the other side, not addressed here, today, being: what is (will be) the perception of value to NYC (employers) of people from the traditional "bedroom communities" on Long Island, especially when compared to their cohort communities in Westchester & Rockland Counties, and, Connecticut or New Jersey; and even as they may be compared to peer neighborhoods in the outer boroughs of NY City over time? Well? Chris Wendt |
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