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Post by lilly on Dec 17, 2013 9:55:38 GMT -5
Mr. Vereline made a really poor analogy about executing common core the other night. He was referring to the flawed roll out of CC (something like teachers dealing with unfinished modules and he can certainly throw in poor or lack of CC teacher training in there). He said it was like giving a chef a recipe but not all the ingredients.
That was an oversimplification and didn't prove his point. He must have been referring to recreational weekend layman cooks, not professional chefs. I'd like to think that in Wantagh our teachers are professional chefs, not weekend recreational cooks.
Successful professional chefs have innate talent/passion for cooking, education and training, a problem solving mental toolkit based on years of on the job experience and professionalism. The simplified version is their end product is satisfactory gourmet meals but there is a whole lot more behind it. If an ingredient is missing, the chef improvises and adjusts but still delivers a gourmet satisfactory meal bc they know how! At home, they can look at their refrigerator which to everyone else in the world might look like it has virtually nothing in it (e.g., portions of leftover takeout, questionable vegetables, a fast food condiment package, etc., etc.) and make do (ok, maybe not the condiment package). Not kidding.
Besides the satisfactory gourmet meals, they also deal with business aspects like delivering on food and labor cost goals, client relationship management, corporate mandates which sometimes seem to make zero sense in the practical daily life of chefs and can be overly time consuming, people managerial skills, organization & planning and their industry hot button, health inspections enacted by an 'overstepping health nut crazy millionaire' mayor. (Bloomberg is to chefs and restaurants what Cuomo/King must be to teachers.) Note that for the most part the health inspection laws are good but they are over the top and some actually defy centuries of culinary knowledge. If you know the health inspector is coming, certain dishes may not be on the menu to get around that. Their evaluations and bonuses are predicated on the above.
So a professional chef analogy is probably a good one for teaching but not the way Mr. Vereline stated the other night.
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Post by lilly on Dec 17, 2013 10:22:13 GMT -5
At the end of the day, after each students' 13-year education, did he graduate, get into college; was it the college of his choice? I think the world has changed a bit. A bachelors degree carries the weight of what a HS diploma used to. And a masters is what a bachelors used to be. The point behind the education reform, the impetus for CC, is not graduation rates (in which Wantagh has always done exceedingly well), it's more like making a HS diploma more meaningful i.e., critical thinking skill so kids are college and career ready (which does not mean everyone goes to college). The proof of performance offered by the BOE the other night was college acceptances. Well, let's take that up a notch. What is the college graduation rates for Wantagh kids within 4 or 6 years and how does that compare to the national average? How many required college remedial classes and how does that compare to national stats? And I realize this info may not be presently available. But, we really need to start asking and answering the tough questions in Wantagh. That should have been done before issuing a resolution. (Hint: Photography awards under academics on Wantagh 'Points of Pride' and cue the spring time budget presentations which present Wantagh test scores in a vacuum are NOT it.) I have no idea how all of this will eventually play out. But, to me it it just may be a game changer. There is no going back to the old whether CC, APPR, etc. fail or succeed.
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Post by Chris_Wendt on Dec 17, 2013 13:51:16 GMT -5
Lilly re: "What is the college graduation rates for Wantagh kids within 4 or 6 years and how does that compare to the national average? How many required college remedial classes and how does that compare to national stats?" Presumes facts not in evidence. Regardless, the "four-year cohort graduation rate" is the ultimate, official statistic of NCLB, which is still in effect. College acceptance rate is the penultimate official statistic. These are published for every school district and every public high school in the U.S. with each state also publishing this data for its own districts and high schools. Graduation Rate is part of AYP as well. Just because Wantagh High School ranks in the top one percent in graduation and college acceptance nationally is NOT A REASON TO PRESUME that our graduates become losers once they get into college...requiring tons of remedial coursework but only to drop out after two or three years. The school district's responsibility is to provide an education. Wantagh kids and their families have done and continue to do a great job of taking good advantage of the education we provide, completing their course of study, graduating, and going on to college, almost en masse. Let's not knock our own success in providing a free, sound, basic education to our children. Check out the vignette I will be posting under Academics. Chris Wendt
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Post by lilly on Dec 17, 2013 15:44:39 GMT -5
Chris, I didn't presume *anything*. And I did state that the info may not be presently available.
Wantagh has not been immune to national statistics in other areas e.g., autism rates, peanut allergies. What makes you think we are immune from the national statistics on college graduation rates or remediation? We don't know! It's unproven one way or the other.
But it is ok to ask questions and expect comprehensive answers.
And now with this resolution, the district/BOE has swung the door WIDE OPEN for questions. They "broke rank" from NYS ed law with the resolution. So, it is fair to ask them to put the whole education reform "crisis" (which it isn't but it is a major concern) into perspective relative to Wantagh supported by DATA. You know, thesis statement, research support - kind of like a 10th grade DBQ. Put it in perspective for us. Give us your considered POV. A BOE president yelling "it's for the kids" doesn't pass muster. Neither does resting on limited NCLB stats.
Actually, I was thinking about that this afternoon. It's the only redeeming benefit of passing the resolution.
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Post by Chris_Wendt on Dec 17, 2013 17:15:59 GMT -5
Wantagh, the Wantagh Union Free School District, is not concerned with college graduation rates; that is not part of our constitutional mandate to provide a free, sound, basic education "sufficient to enable our graduates to serve as effective members of a jury of their peers" (NY Court of Appeals definition).
I am sure if College graduation rates by sending high school was in any way a valuable statistic, then it would be immediately available and run up the flag pole by whichever community faction the results favored.
Oh wait! The success rate of college entrants by sending high school is tracked by some universities, and that data becomes and remains a vital part of their selection process. Ergo sequitur, Wantagh's perennially astronomically high graduation rate and nearly astronomical college acceptance rates are de facto indicators of generally positive outcomes in college for Wantagh High alumni. And while specific data are not published and not used by the central government to evaluate school or district performance, it would be a fair inference that Wantagh's graduates do not suffer lack of preparation to the same degree which we may also infer to be the national norm, nor do they drop out or flunk out more than the average college student from the theoretically average high school. Based on Wantagh's wealth measurements, and our undeniably homogeneous demographics, we could also infer that Wantagh's alumni do exceptionally well in college, possibly in the ninetieth percentile of college degree completion. I personally believe this to be the case.
Now, are we all speaking out of all sides of our collective mouths about the Common Core? Sure. Primarily because we don't know what we are talking about, for the most part. We do know what is popular to believe, and what behaviors are acceptable or popular in reaction to those beliefs. Personally, I think our fellow contributor "rr" is the most consistent and possibly the most correct in his thinking among the lot of us. But I do not agree with his thesis, and continue to push my own, which is not really fair to his thesis. But the entire process has now broken down, because, as right as I believe myself to be in my own thinking, I have also been empowered to join in the hue and cry of the mob (mentality) which is shouting-down (bullying, if you please) believers in the Common Core Concept, including official bullying being shouted from the dais at a CCC believer, by the President of the Wantagh Board of Education, or so I have been told..
If, as you suggest, the Board has broken ranks with the State, and more importantly, if that is what the Board believes they have done, then it would be incumbent upon the Commissioner to remove the members of our Board who so voted.
I do not wish to find myself liking the board resolution because it happens to advance Chris Wendt's agenda against the Common Core Assessments and against the Commissioner of Education and against the Chancellor of the Regents. I want the assessment schedule in NY brought into line with the 2015 implementation schedule of the PARCC consortium, of which NY is a member state. This is for logical, for rational, and for legal reasons which I hold dear. I want King and Tisch both to resign or to be fired, but for their own egregious actions respective of the Common Core Assessment release in 2013, not because of allied resistance by the teachers union to APPR or reluctance of some parents to embrace the Common Core Curriculum or its attendant academic rigor.
I take tremendous pride and satisfaction hearing of the reading exploits of a certain kindergartner with her piles of books out in Bayshore. "You should SEE the books she's got!" her mom bragged to me today. A 5-year old book club member! I am not in any hurry to see that stopped by mob rule.
Strange days, indeed.
Chris Wendt
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Post by lilly on Dec 18, 2013 10:34:07 GMT -5
Chris, we can go back & forth over the elements of this multi-layered disaster forever. 'Jury of their peers' is a really low bar for a sound, basic education. As for constitutional mandates, issuing ineffective unactionable resolutions prob isn't covered in that either. And yes we (all "factions") are speaking out of 2 sides of our mouths about this multi-layered disaster. But, I did enjoy reading that you are joining the mob mentality. I will comment on your view of Wantagh college graduation rates though. The prevailing statistic is for a bachelors degrees obtained within 6 years, not the 4 you would expect. That's a scary thought for parents given the cost of college. National average is 55.5%, NY ranks #15 or above average at 59.2%. www.higheredinfo.org/dbrowser/?level=nation&mode=graph&state=0&submeasure=27According to this NYS Ed 2012 report, 91.4% of 2006/7 Wantagh graduates attended college. (Note this is a little lower than the 97.3% 2013 rate on the district website. Why, not sure but not all that important. Wantagh does very well in HS graduation and college intention.) Acc to that report, a pinch more than half of our HS grads attend public NY colleges. That is 1000% believable. LI districts are huge feeder schools to the SUNYs. And, the SUNYs have become even more competitive given the recession and college cost bubble we are facing/about to face. www.highered.nysed.gov/oris/participation/1stYrCollegeByDistrict2006-07cohort.pdfThe 6 year graduation rates for SUNYs are: Purchase 63% Oneonta 64% Fredonia 64% Cortland 67% Bing 79% Geneseo 79% New Paltz 75% Buff 70% Albany 63% (Source: College Board, some uniform statistic all colleges I think are required to report.) Note the trend there, the more selective SUNYs have the higher %'s but they are not 90% which holds true for only some of the more elite privates. Harvard 97%, Princeton 96%, NYU 85% We send what, 1 maybe 2 students to the top 5 Ivies a year? While I agree that Wantagh graduates would exceed the average 6 year graduation rate at these colleges (SIX years!!!), I am unconvinced that it would be an across the board or overall 90% that you suggest. As an aside from the college graduation rates, Wantagh stats for 2 year colleges is 18.33% of 2013 graduates (from our website) are at NCC, Farmingdale, etc. Acc to this (pro-CC propaganda?) Newsday article, HALF of SUNY/CUNY 2 year school students require remedial classes and that # has been upticking. www.newsday.com/long-island/education/colleges/suny-cuny-remedial-course-enrollments-rise-1.4625869 Note I am not knocking our local 2 year colleges. I was encouraging my kids to attend them bc it is a fiscally smart way to work towards a bachelors. And I'd make an assumption that the remediation problem is greater in the CUNYs than out here on LI. So while possible your optimistic 90% may be true, it is numerically unlikely. Again, Wantagh would probably wind up north of the general stats but how much, we don't know.
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Post by lilly on Dec 18, 2013 10:38:51 GMT -5
And, give me a day with PISA, TIMSS, NAEP and NYS Ed stats and I could probably give you a decent objective assessment on where Wantagh and NY stand in this educational reform "crisis". Let's put it to bed or give it perspective based on facts, not opinions or minimal "jury of their peers" educational standards.
I am more concerned with that than APPR resistance, disastrous CC roll-outs and parents sending their kids bad signals about premature (excessive) testing.
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Post by rr on Dec 19, 2013 17:01:21 GMT -5
Do we know if this resolution was actually drafted by our BOE? It doesn't follow the form letters that I've seen from other local districts.
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Post by lilly on Dec 20, 2013 8:07:26 GMT -5
rr, why does that matter? We know the following: From Chris's friend... "I made a few phone calls to find out that this is becoming an effort between many school districts. You know Chris that they believe that more districts that object, they might get some action.
Superintendents get together in regularly scheduled 'regional' meetings so all of this has been widely discussed. (Plus, remember, the Suffolk superintendents association hosted Diane Ravitch last month.) The Wantagh resolution looks like it was adapted from Jericho's. The layout and much of the wording is almost identical with some differences like Wantagh has a pro CC sentence not in Jericho's. jerichoschools.org/UserFiles/Servers/Server_5887727/File/Board%20of%20Education/13-14/Testing%20Resolution2.pdf
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Post by rr on Dec 20, 2013 13:08:41 GMT -5
No matter really, kind of funny that they strayed from the normal form letter and adopted the one issued by one of the more prestigious school districts on LI and NY…
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Post by Chris_Wendt on Dec 21, 2013 9:53:45 GMT -5
Doubling back over this conversation, I want to respond to rr's observation: "...if schools were run like business this conversation wouldn't be happening - this whole thing would have been resolved a long time ago. When I said reality, I wasn't talking about the business world - I was talking about the reality of public education.
People are already up in arms, including the Wantagh Union Rep at the last BOE meeting, about big business butting into education. Can you imagine the blowback from actually trying to make schools operate in a more business-like manner?!" I am already on record, reprising, here, that public education--as a grand governmental function--has been mortally wounded and is slowly bleeding-out; it is only a matter of time until educating the public evolves into being a sector of the global industrial economy, and not a function of the central (U.S. and various states) government(s). And yes, you are correct: there will be blowback! Please do not confuse predicting with advocating on my part in this matter. Feel free to reject my thesis, out of hand. But remember, the world is not flat, after all. Christopher (Chris) Wendt
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