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Post by rr on Sept 12, 2013 7:50:46 GMT -5
OK so it wasn't your influence that people opted out last year, perhaps the reason why WES had such a high rate is because our principal at the time was the poster boy for the anti-testing movement and worked hard to get it in the minds of some of the parents....just my guess.
Back to my earlier question - if Common Core is not the answer, please provide an alternative. Nothing is added by saying, "I don't agree with this, my kid feels pressure and so I'm letting them skip this test". It sends the wrong message, takes the authority away from the teachers and schools and gives a generation already leaning toward entitlement the impression that Mommy and Daddy can get me out of taking this test.
From a slightly broader perspective, do you think opting-out is a valuable lesson to teach our kids?
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greda
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Post by greda on Sept 12, 2013 9:45:31 GMT -5
The problem here is that people don't want to face up to the fact that things change. And people need to learn to face up to it. The Core may not be the best answer but it is at least a start.
Mr. Wendt does not have any other suggestions except to say the tests are the worse thing since the plague. He offers nothing but obfuscation and no solutions.
As I had said earlier, because of these changes my daughter is learning to write better and more clearly than my son did three years prior.
Teachers should not be teaching to a test. If what NYS and the others that have developed the common core are looking to get our students better prepared for the future is true (and there is always a chance that it will not be) teachers should just teach what the curriculum calls for and the students will do fine. And they need to be held accountable if they are not doing a good job. Half the battle with this is the composition of the student body and parent participation. And on both counts, Wantagh is well positioned.
And if parents pull their kids out of the test, that is a shame. Part of life is dealing with failure. Avoiding it just causes problems in the future.
I would like to end with two quotes which I think sums up how I feel:
"Success is the result of perfection, hard work, learning from failure, loyalty and persistance" - Colin Powell
"Failure is not fatal but failure to change might be" - John Wooden
Let us see how the school adminstration handles this change in curriculm now that the administrative staff is hopefully stabilized
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Post by Chris_Wendt on Sept 12, 2013 10:11:00 GMT -5
I would like to request that we discuss OPTING OUT on the appropriate existing thread, previously started by contributor LILY at: How Many Wantagh Kids Opted Out of State Testing? (link)We should also take the Common Core conversation over to its own thread (perhaps one of you will start that thread)? This thread is intended to be about the failure rates in the 2013 NYS Assessments. the results of which are widely recognized as having little or nothing to do with the Common Core itself. Hundreds thousands of kids failed those tests; hundred of schools and school districts failed those tests. But those results, according to the Commissioner of Education, do not mean that any student, any school or any school district actually failed the Common Core. Thank you. Chris Wendt
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Post by rr on Sept 12, 2013 11:16:29 GMT -5
I feel that these topics are really all intertwined...it's difficult to discuss the "failure" rates without discussing what's driving those rates, which is the Common Core. and you can't discuss the Common Core in Wantagh, especially if you're kids go to WES without touching on the topic of opting-out, which our principal last year was perhaps not outwardly condoning but given his stance on the Common Core - it's quite easy to draw conclusions on why the rate was higher in that school.
I'm all in on starting a dialogue on opting out, I do believe the silent majority are against that course of action but the few vocal proponents of opting out often drown out the conversation because it's a popular cause right now.
I hope our district does come up with a statement about the testing process...and hopefully it's not about how much they disagree with the Common Core and over-testing and teaching to the test. It's time to shift the conversation from opt-ing out to lets figure this out and work with the kids to ensure they're prepared, enthused about school and making strides in the right direction. If they do disagree with the Common Core and testing they should at the very least come forward with an alternative solution, which again, nobody seems to be able to provide.
I found it interesting that you posted this quote earlier today...in my opinion it seems to apply to this topic as well...
"Fear stifles our thinking and actions. It creates indecisiveness that results in stagnation.... Lost opportunities cause erosion of confidence, and the downward spiral begins." -Charles Stanley
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greda
Junior Member
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Post by greda on Sept 12, 2013 12:13:46 GMT -5
I don't think Lily's link is relevant as we are not really discussing the opting out but more on how we are looking at the first year of testing and you calling it a failure.
In today's WSJ (paid website so I pasted it), there is an article which discusses this very topic and the cost of not doing something to change the status quo. The world has changed tremendously and something needs to be done to address it. It is hopeful that our teachers and adminsitrators are up to the task. And just throwing more money at it is not the solution
Peterson and Hanushek: The Vital Link of Education and Prosperity Data from 50 countries over half a century reveal how even a small education gain can mean a big economic payoff.
Americans are aware of public education's many failures—the elevated high-school dropout rates, the need for remedial work among entering college students. One metric in particular stands out: Only 32% of U.S. high-school students are proficient in math on the National Assessment of Educational Progress. When the NAEP results are put on the scale of the Program on International Student Assessment (PISA), the world's best source of information on student achievement, the comparable proficiency rates in math are 45% in Germany, 49% in Canada, and 63% in Singapore, the highest performing independent nation. The subpar performance of U.S. students has wide ramifications—and not just for individuals. On an individual level, of course, the connection between education and income is obvious. Those with a college degree can expect to earn over 60% more in the course of their lifetime than those with a high-school diploma, according to U.S. Census data. But there is a nexus between educational achievement and national prosperity as well.
According to our calculations, raising student test scores in this country up to the level in Canada would dramatically increase economic growth. We estimate that the additional growth dividend has a present value of $77 trillion over the next 80 years. This is equivalent to adding an average 20% to the paycheck of every worker for every year of work over this time period.
Where do such astronomical numbers come from? Students of human capital have long known that a country's growth rate is connected to the skills of the workers. And it has recently become apparent from our analysis of differences in growth rates among countries between 1960 and 2009 that the skills that count are reliably measured by standardized tests of math and science such as PISA and NAEP.
We have analyzed all the well-vetted international tests given to students since the 1960s in 50 countries for which test-score information is available. Adjusting for a country's initial GDP (since it is easier to grow fast when you start at a low level), the differences in long-run growth rates are mainly accounted for by differences in cognitive skills as measured by these international tests.
Between 1960 and 2009, the extra-rapid growth of some countries at the top of the achievement distribution—such as Korea, Taiwan, Singapore and Hong Kong—can be readily explained by their students' very high test scores. Their growth was almost 2% per year higher than would be expected if they had only average achievement. Countries at the bottom of the achievement distribution—such as South Africa, Argentina, the Philippines and Peru—have suffered from the weak growth that their failing education systems predict. Their growth was almost 2% less per year than would be expected had their student test scores put them at the world average.
The U.S. economy grew two-thirds of a percent faster per year for this period than would be predicted by its students' mediocre test scores. This performance reflects a number of historic advantages. The U.S. economy is built on open markets, secure property rights and generally favorable tax rates; a higher-education system at the top of the world; and favorable immigration policies that permitted highly skilled people to enter. But these relative advantages are declining as other countries emulate our institutions and practices.
In the future, U.S. growth will depend on the skills of its citizens, and currently those skills are not competitive with other countries. This nation can no longer expect to grow by retaining talent attracted to colleges and universities from abroad, as other nations are offering foreign students much broader opportunities and U.S. immigration policies are becoming more uncertain.
Assuming that historic trends in all 50 countries in our analysis apply equally to the United States, its GDP growth rate would be boosted by about three-fourths of 1% a year if student test scores in math rose by 40 points higher on international tests, to the level attained by Canadian students. Three-quarters of a percent a year seems small, but it generates an amount five times our current GDP of $16 trillion.
To get a sense of the magnitude of these numbers, consider that the Congressional Budget Office estimated that $4 trillion of potential GDP was lost between 2008 and 2012 as a result of the recent recession. That's a big-time number but only a hint of the long-term price of nearly $80 trillion the country pays for a low-performing educational system.
How can U.S. student achievement be boosted? Notably, the average number of years students are in school has little impact on economic growth, once student test-score performance is taken into account. If you aren't learning anything at your desk, it doesn't matter how long you sit there.
Nor is more money the answer. The U.S. spends on average $12,000 per pupil in grades K-12, one of the highest amounts in the world. Among U. S. states, increments in spending per pupil between 1990 and 2010 show no correlation with changes in student performance.
In Wyoming and New York, spending levels per pupil climbed at one of the fastest rates without getting any extra gains in student achievement over this time period. Florida was among the most rapidly improving states, even though inflation-adjusted state expenditures per pupil hardly changed. It matters more how the money is spent than how much is spent. Expensive but ineffective policies such as class size reduction, while valued by current school personnel, have not raised achievement. Better accountability, more school choice, market-based teacher compensation and retention policies can on the other hand boost achievement without adding materially to school costs.
Nationwide, the biggest economic gains will come many years after school improvement takes place, a fact that probably helps to explain the reluctance of the political class to commit itself to genuine school reform. Confronting the power of teacher unions and other vested interests is politically costly. But the failure to improve the education system is more costly still.
Mr. Peterson is a professor of government at Harvard and a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution, where Mr. Hanushek is a senior fellow. They are the authors, with Ludger Woessmann, of "Endangering Prosperity: A Global View of the American School" (Brookings, 2013).
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Post by Chris_Wendt on Sept 12, 2013 14:16:38 GMT -5
I feel that these topics are really all intertwined...it's difficult to discuss the "failure" rates without discussing what's driving those rates, which is the Common Core.... These are not the only topics intertwined on this vine. But the Common Core had nothing to do with the failure rates in NY on the 2013 Assessments. The tests were put into play two years early, two years ahead of and out-of-phase with the PARCC (Common Core) Assessment schedule, making the 2013 NY Assessments NOT COMMON Core. To many, the 2013 NY Assessment results are irrelevant and useless, or irrelevant and harmful, perhaps exceedingly so. ...and you can't discuss the Common Core in Wantagh...if your kids go to WES without touching on the topic of opting-out, which our principal last year was perhaps not outwardly condoning but given his stance on the Common Core - it's quite easy to draw conclusions on why the rate was higher in that school.... As you know, I was publicly against opting-out as being without foundation under the law, anarchistic, and potentially harmful to kids who may need AIS but would not receive AIS if they opted-out of the Assessments. I have now reversed my stance, reversed my position on this, and I believe my current position will remain in force until the agreed-to PARCC Assessment & Standard-setting timetable comes into effect in the 2014-15 school year, with scoring standards put into place in 2015, or unless King is replaced in the meanwhile, or if NY changes its stance on the matter and normalizes the assessment scores for 2013 and 2014. When two highly esteemed educators, one a NY State Superintendent of the Year (and leader of what is arguably one of the state's best school districts) and the other a NY State Principal of the Year, and a member of our own (Wantagh) administration both turn against this intertwined teaching/testing mess, then I think readers should give pause for serious reflection on the matter. I'm all in on starting a dialog on opting out, I do believe the silent majority are against that course of action but the few vocal proponents of opting out often drown out the conversation because it's a popular cause right now.... Opting-out is a personal decision, and one which parents who chose to undertake it must be prepared to accept whatever consequences attach to their child as a result. It is never possible to accurately ascertain the opinion of the silent majority, or even the vocal majority. People often vote or act much differently than they speak, or murmur in the shadows. Opting-out is not really all that popular, not at 6% or even at 10%. Prognosticating, and I hope you appreciate the significance of this statement, the B.S. associated with the nonsensical results of the 2013 Assessments will very likely increase the popularity of opting-out, as well as the numbers of students who do so next year. And THAT would be good news for people who favor opting-out, for whatever their personal reasons may be. I hope our district does come up with a statement about the testing process...and hopefully it's not about how much they disagree with the Common Core and over-testing and teaching to the test. It's time to shift the conversation from opt-ing out to lets figure this out and work with the kids to ensure they're prepared, enthused about school and making strides in the right direction. If they do disagree with the Common Core and testing they should at the very least come forward with an alternative solution, which again, nobody seems to be able to provide. I won't get into a Common Core debate on this thread, remaining faithful to my construct that the 2013 Assessments had nothing at all to do with the Common Core.. I would respond to the gist of your last statement with the old adage: " If it isn't broken, then don't fix it." More properly, we should fix what is broke worst, first. That's where both the pain and the gain will really happen. Not fast though. And nothing to do with the Common Core or raising some mythical bar that is already high enough to have put man on the moon. So, please do go ahead please and crank-up a Common Core thread, and please add your viewpoints to the existing Opting-Out thread, and let's see if any tongues will be loosened among the silent murmurers. Yours, Chris Wendt
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Post by rr on Sept 12, 2013 14:41:12 GMT -5
Chris - it is broken...and it needs fixing. The widening gap between the upper and lower class and the squeeze on the middle class is enough of a reason why we need to fix education NOW. That same stance of if it aint broke, then don't fix it has led us to the point of the Pension bomb and to the point where the largest line items and annual increases in our school budgets and taxes relates to union benefits.
It's broken...the whole thing and we need to fix it.
Regarding opting out - I've heard all the points from the Facebook faithful, I've received the letters home from Dr. Sternberg and in the end I maintain than opting out of accountability should not be the answer to more rigorous testing and curriculum.
Interesting that you brought up putting a man on the moon, when was the last time we put a man on the moon? That was a major accomplishment for our country so many years ago...instead of focusing on achievements like that and outdoing those great men and women, our media and younger generations focus more on the Kardashians and 15 minutes of reality show fame.
It is broken.
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greda
Junior Member
Posts: 44
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Post by greda on Sept 12, 2013 18:59:14 GMT -5
RR - I could not have said it better
And Chris, the Goldberg letter you referenced in one of your earlier posts, says"these tests were based upon the new more rigorous Common Core Learning Standards (my emphasis) which were introduced in the 2012-13 school year".
And just because members of the establishment are opining against it, does not mean the new standards are bad. It could be that they are looking out for their own interests.
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Post by Chris_Wendt on Sept 13, 2013 6:50:47 GMT -5
At the outset of this thread I invited reader comments. There have been some excellent comments posted, since. In order to keep the thread on track, the following comments are restated from the fist post of the thread: Comments:- ELA Average number of failures per grade level increased by 125% from 55 to 124, between 2012 and 2013.
- Math Average number of failures per grade level tripled from 33 to 98 between 2012 and 2013.
- District-wide, 742 students were reported "Not On-Grade-Level" for ELA in 2013
- District-wide, 587 students were reported "Not On-Grade-Level" for Math in 2013
Please do not infer that the 2013 Assessments had any validity or probative value concerning Wantagh's educational curriculum, efforts, or "real" learning outcomes. Adding-up the total "Not On-Grade-Level" results yields a sum of 1,329 "Failures" reported in Wantagh between ELA & Math Assessments, Grades 3 through 8 in 2013. The number of students involved is probably close to the 742 number, perhaps more. The letters containing the bad news will be going home soon. My bottom line, same as my top line on this: bad tests equal bad results. Any reader is free to make their own assessment of the 2013 NYS Assessment results for Wantagh. Parents, of course, will have to make a more insightful judgment about the scores and performance ratings of their own individual children, and decide for themselves, on a case-by-case basis, if the problem with their child being NOT On-Grade-Level is real, or is it an aberrant artifact of really bad tests foisted on their child by The NY State Education Department? Part of each parent's deliberation should be to consider the perennially high graduation rate and college attendance rates following graduation from Wantagh High. By perennially, I mean for the past thirty-plus years. Here are Wantagh's results from NYSED for the immediate prior 5 years: Graduation Year | 2008 | 2009 | 2010 | 2011 | 2012 | 5-yr Avg | Graduation Rate | 99% | 100% | 100% | 99% | 97% | 99% | 4-yr College | 76% | 79% | 82% | 80% | 82% | 80% | 2-yr College | 22% | 18% | 17% | 19% | 17% | 19% | Regents Diploma | 100% | 100% | 98% | 99% | 100% | 99% | Advanced Regents | 76% | 79% | 82% | 74% | 73% | 77% |
You be the judge. Is Wantagh broken? And if so, then what would you fix...and how? Seriously. Chris Wendt
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Post by rr on Sept 13, 2013 7:55:12 GMT -5
Chris, I feel like the point is being missed here...looking at graduation rates of a curriculum that has been deemed insufficient and outdated is not proving that something isn't broken. If we continue to accept lower standards so that our numbers continue to look good, well who is actually losing...sure the numbers look good but our kids are NOT prepared. Speaking for myself, no, Wantagh is not broken...the educational system is and that's really what we're talking about, isn't it? We're using Wantagh schools as an example but the reality is that we're talking about education in the US and raising that imaginary bar.
As I've said, I believe in 3 years the Common Core, the testing and people opting out will be a complete non-issue. The good teachers in our district will rise to the occasion and create ways to teach concepts and continue creating great thinkers and making learning fun and some may find that the profession has passed them by, the kids will adjust and become more adept at learning concepts and probably be more prepared to enter the world and maybe we'll once again send someone to the moon.
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Post by Chris_Wendt on Sept 13, 2013 9:27:05 GMT -5
...looking at graduation rates of a curriculum (that has been deemed insufficient and outdated) is not proving that something isn't broken. We are looking at the graduation rates of our students, and their post-graduation plans. Who deemed Wantagh's curriculum "insufficient" or "outdated"? It has certainly not been insufficient for Wantagh students to graduate on-time, nor for their getting into 4-year and 2-year colleges. More importantly, the Wantagh curriculum is and has been for the last 33 years an ever-evolving, responsive, and improving matrix, more as a living thing. Next year, for example, it will most likely include three new AP© courses in the high school. I am not missing your point on this, I am just not buying into it. Next point: Yes, if you have been following my writing here and on W-S Patch, you know that I agree that public education is broken in the U.S. and in NYS. The Wantagh School District is fortunate to have been able to thrive in spite of USED and NYSED and reductions in state aid. We have done that largely through our own sweat equity, and our local tax dollars, along with a huge amount of gratitude having accrued to our faculty and administration, parent support groups, and the Board of Education, down through the years. Yours truly, Chris Wendt
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Post by rr on Sept 13, 2013 10:27:50 GMT -5
The group that deemed the curriculum being insufficient /outdated was that the US government, the states and the education leaders, haven't they decided through this Common Core that the system / curriculum needs updating. I'm not saying that specifically Wantagh is outdated, I'm saying our education system needs an overhaul...the leaders of our country and state have determined that, didn't they? I think I'm looking at this on a broader spectrum, I'm not focused on Wantagh because, the curriculum is no longer unique to Wantagh...now it's a statewide curriculum, now it's pretty much nationwide. Agreed, Wantagh has maintained great scores and I think if you look at the results of the 3rd grade, in Wantagh, and how they performed, the drop off in scores from prior years was less dramatic. This enforces my belief that in a few years this will be a non-issue, the kids that are learning the new curriculum in Kindergarten now will adapt to it better than kids currently in 5th grade and above. www.greatschools.org/new-york/wantagh/3949-Wantagh-School/?tab=test-scoresThe one group you've forgotten to acknowledge in your praise of Wantagh Schools are the actual parents (not just the support groups) and the school kids themselves...
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greda
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Posts: 44
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Post by greda on Sept 13, 2013 12:57:07 GMT -5
As I have posted in prior posts, national education and business leaders have looked at the relevant national data and compared it with other countries and have come to the valid conclusion that our students are falling behind other countries and sometimes do not have the sufficent schooling to obtain jobs.
To support this statement, I have posted two articles laying out the stats.
I think I have been clear in saying that the Core Curriculum is a way to help address this deficency. Now you can quote graduation rates but you can't tell us how these kids do when they get to college. Are they prepared to handle the college workload? Or do they come back from a 4-year and go to NCC to build up their grades?
Higher standards will cause issues which manifested itself in the drop in scores. But like the CUNY article, it is a struggle at first but in the end the students meet the challenge and learn so much more. It is incumbent upon the adminstration to come up with a solution on how to address it. And that is where that scary work accountability comes in.
Chris refuses to acknowledge these facts and posts either irrelevant or incorrect information. He may be doing it to get a reaction or does not realize he is off-base but it is becoming tedious
When our kids start school they do not know what to expect. If they are given a tougher workload they will adjust and survive. and should I say they will exceed our expectations. And we all will benefit from that it the end.
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Post by Chris_Wendt on Sept 13, 2013 12:57:32 GMT -5
I am sure you are not deliberately trying to push my buttons. But you hit a couple of them with your last post: - the Federal Government has zero accountability to anyone for any educational results anywhere except for federal schools on Indian Reservations and perhaps for some government schools for military dependents on large bases.
- under the U.S. Constitution, Education is a state responsibility, and each state (NY) is fully accountable and responsible for their own educational results.
- how I wished that Newt Gingrich's Contract with America would have succeeded to disband the U.S Education Department, or to have reduced and limited their authority solely to managing the Free & Reduced Lunch programs.
- I view federal meddling in education as a Socialist scheme to redistribute wealth around the country in the name of improving educational outcomes, especially for Alabama, Arkansas, Louisiana, and Mississippi, as well as big cities including Chicago, Los Angeles, New York, Philadelphia, and Washington, DC to name but a few.
We would not be debating whether or not or how bad education is broken in the US if the federal government ever had anything worthwhile to contribute to its improvement. The government has redistributed TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS in one vain attempt after the next supposedly to "improve" education in those exact places where education is broken the worst. So, I would nominate Federal Aid to Education as one of our biggest failures ever. And the federal government wants to do what for your kids' education? We are (Wantagh is) already at 99% graduation rate and 99% college attendance. I am sure the 1 percent who do not graduate on time will be a persistent faction for totally valid reasons that raising the bar cannot overcome. I think the other 1 percent (of graduates) who do not pursue higher learning is actually too small a fraction, leaving too few to join the military or to proudly pursue non-academic occupations perhaps handed down through generations of their own families, also not anything amenable to being changed by raising the bar. Let's consider who is responsible for what. You and I and everyone reading this board are collectively financially responsible for every failing kid in every failing school in every failing district in Ney York. In between all of us and all of those failing kids, schools, and districts is a labyrinth of bureaucracy including the NY Board of Regents, the Commissioner of Education, NYSED, both houses of the State Legislature, the Governor, and the various BOCES and local Boards of Education, all of whom collect and then parcel-out our money, and lay down regulations and set up tests, and establish lists of types and degrees of failing, and then make excuses upon excuses for why the failures persist and deepen. Even when the State directly takes over a failing school district, failure persists, as it did for eleven years in Roosevelt, Town of Hempstead, Nassau County, Long Island, NY. Yet Roosevelt is the tip of the iceberg. There are a hundred Roosevelt's around this state, more, failing seemingly beyond hope. Already failing miserably against the current, "insufficient and outdated" standards, begs the question: how will raising those insufficient and outdated standards improve the outcomes of 111 Roosevelt's? The Governor is prescribing the "Death Penalty" for our failing schools. I figured out why and I am pretty sure I know how. Watch this board for developments. Chris Wendt
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Post by rr on Sept 13, 2013 13:16:46 GMT -5
First off, I hope you know I'm not deliberately trying to push your buttons nor am I a socialist. I do however feel that our educational system needs an overhaul, not just the rigors of the standards we hold our future leaders to but also the union contracts, tenure and benefits should be reviewed, but that's another topic altogether. Just because kids graduate from HS or go to a 2 or 4 year college does not mean they are ready to enter an increasingly competitive and diverse workplace.
When you start talking about failing schools like Roosevelt, I think we start approaching a different social issue, one that revolves around the decay of the traditional nuclear family and values.
We've probably reached the point of saturation on this particular thread...I'd love the opportunity to talk more with you about this sometime but for now - I think I'm signing off of this particular thread...for now.
Respectfully, rr
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