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Post by WantaghConcernedCitizens on Feb 19, 2011 19:33:22 GMT -5
What is see thru NY? I am passionate and realize that however, I told you I have seen what my family has gone through...I am also not even close to knowing all these ins and outs and that is why I asked. I suppose I am more likely to take the emptional side of things as I have been in a house and at family dinners with my "teachers". Like I said I am greatful for what I have and appreciate the hard work teachers do. I appreciate your numbers and clearly you have m ore facts then I do. FYI my children are not YEARS before school age. Guess that is the only number you don't have available to you. Search engine that list all municipal workers compensation amounts by year. I think you might be shocked, if you neighbors are claiming hardships. seethruny.com/PayrollsPensions/tabid/55/Default.aspxI thought that when you stated "To be fair my children are 2 years out from school age" during your first post, so isn't a multiple of more than 1 refereed to as YEARS. BTW, I'm sorry about being defensive, short and condescending, but you attacked me first. Furthermore, I suggest you attend the next BOE or BAC meetings, information is power. PS, the reason we know what they make is because we are asked to pay their salaries, which is unlike the private sector that answer to stockholders.
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Post by wantagh4life on Feb 19, 2011 22:01:52 GMT -5
Serious----
Don't take this stuff to heart. I've only been here a little over a month, and this is what I've learned:
If you question the veracity of someone's statement, you are attacking them.
If you point out that someone is lying or take exception with someone's tone, you are not in possession of the "real facts", and you're just being emotional.
If you express your dissatisfaction with a decision that was made by the community in the past, you are a loser.
If you try to explain the logic behind one of your statements, you are causing a distraction.
If, after reading the posts of others, you remain unswayed, you have poor reading comprehension skills and you should ask your parents for help.
If you post anything positive about the schools, you are a troll.
But do not fret... instead, bear this in mind.... you are essentially dealing with only 3 or 4 people, hardly a majority in our community.
If you are unsure about what I'm saying, look at the poll that is being conducted about the desire for full-day kindergarten... it was posted 1 week ago, and there have been only 6 responses, and one of them is mine. That leaves 5 others... subtract Mr. Wendt, Lilly, WCC, and the gentleman who is conducting the poll, and you are left with some insight into how far-reaching this "stupid message board" is... they drew one response... one... count it... one.
How's that for a result?
In the end, I am going to respond to a statement directed at you by WCC---- "In closing, regardless if you are a teacher or not, you might be doing more damage to the WUT than you can imagine."
I think that when members of this board brazenly post half-truths, untruths, and other disparaging statements about the people who work with our kids, they are doing more damage to the morale (of both the kids and the adults) in the schools than they can imagine.
How on Earth are we (parents, students, teachers, administration, BOE, BAC, other community members, etc) going to pull together during these "times that try men's souls" if we continue to conduct ourselves this way?
I don't know.
What I do know is that if I, or anyone else, believed that this message board is anything more than the expressed opinions of a very, very small faction, I'd be the concerned citizen.
But it doesn't.
It's obvious.... no PhD in reading comprehension or help from mommy or daddy required.
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Post by WantaghConcernedCitizens on Feb 19, 2011 22:53:35 GMT -5
Serious---- Don't take this stuff to heart. I've only been here a little over a month, and this is what I've learned: If you question the veracity of someone's statement, you are attacking them. If you express your dissatisfaction with a decision that was made by the community in the past, you are a loser. If you try to explain the logic behind one of your statements, you are causing a distraction. If, after reading the posts of others, you remain unswayed, you have poor reading comprehension skills and you should ask your parents for help. If you post anything positive about the schools, you are a troll. But do not fret... instead, bear this in mind.... you are essentially dealing with only 3 or 4 people, hardly a majority in our community. If you are unsure about what I'm saying, look at the poll that is being conducted about the desire for full-day kindergarten... it was posted 1 week ago, and there have been only 6 responses, and one of them is mine. That leaves 5 others... subtract Mr. Wendt, Lilly, WCC, and the gentleman who is conducting the poll, and you are left with some insight into how far-reaching this "stupid message board" is... they drew one response... one... count it... one. How's that for a result? In the end, I am going to respond to a statement directed at you by WCC---- "In closing, regardless if you are a teacher or not, you might be doing more damage to the WUT than you can imagine." I think that when members of this board post half-truths, untruths, and other forms of disparaging statements about the people who work with our kids, they are doing more damage to the morale (of both the kids and the adults) in the schools than they can imagine. How on Earth are we (parents, students, teachers, administration, BOE, BAC, other community members, etc) going to pull together during these "times that try men's souls" if we continue to conduct ourselves this way? I don't know. What I do know is that if I, or anyone else, believed that this message board represents anything more than the opinions of a very, very few people, I'd be the concerned citizen. But it doesn't. It's obvious.... no PhD in reading comprehension or help from mommy or daddy required. Wantagh4life, I still waiting for you to challenge my last few posts, but I'm sure you are avoiding them, as their is little to contest! Example: "If the WUT offered concession, we wouldn't be firing teachers......" Seriously, you are the one spreading false information, in order to distract people from the truth. IMO, one post was so specific, only a member of the WUT would have posted it. Please see this thread to confirm, view the part about average salaries and see links that I posted. wantaghsd.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=otwantagh&action=display&thread=365IMO, I'm 100% positive that Wantagh4life is a WUT member, which helps to validate this thread header. In closing, Wantagh4life is only here to cloud the facts and distract the community from the truth. Take a look at how many individuals visited the site these past few days, we are getting over 100+ per day (it available on the main page, listed as guests). The word is spreading.... I'm sure some of the WUT younger generation appreciate my efforts, because I said what they were unable too.
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Post by seriousconcern on Feb 21, 2011 11:18:35 GMT -5
W4l thank you, after reading what you said, it seems your right. I started going through a lot of the other postings, and it seems there is a common language used. It seems that having a opposing view just get you numbers slammed down your throat. Btw thanks for the info on see through NY. While it's informative to know what teachers make, I stand by my former opinion...I don't really care what they make...I think they have a tough job, and while I agree that there are probably some fossils that shoul get the boot before these young motivated teachers, slamming the entire profession is crazy. It is clear I should certainly get to the next BOE meeting, and will do so. The bits and pieces I have heard in my circle of friends leads me to believe there is a lot of misdirection on these post, and all the number crunching is more of smoke and mirrors. While is may be accurate I wonder if any of us could do the job these people do. Again I know that is me just trying to distract you all, but seriously....could any of us do what these people do? I would love for you to respond to that...I realize there is no mathematical equation involved and is purely emotional...but worth consideration.
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Post by lilly on Feb 21, 2011 12:59:28 GMT -5
seriousconcern, I'm curious what happened at your family dinner table growing up. Did you have 'tell me the worst & best thing that happened today and why', current event or political discussions, debates once in a while? Any sort of discussions where critical thinking skill, supported by fact-based arguments were encouraged regularly?
Unfortunately, you're really not doing your neighbor friends any favors here. At least not what I can see.
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Post by WantaghConcernedCitizens on Feb 21, 2011 20:45:45 GMT -5
W4l thank you, after reading what you said, it seems your right. I started going through a lot of the other postings, and it seems there is a common language used. It seems that having a opposing view just get you numbers slammed down your throat. Btw thanks for the info on see through NY. While it's informative to know what teachers make, I stand by my former opinion...I don't really care what they make...I think they have a tough job, and while I agree that there are probably some fossils that shoul get the boot before these young motivated teachers, slamming the entire profession is crazy. It is clear I should certainly get to the next BOE meeting, and will do so. The bits and pieces I have heard in my circle of friends leads me to believe there is a lot of misdirection on these post, and all the number crunching is more of smoke and mirrors. While is may be accurate I wonder if any of us could do the job these people do. Again I know that is me just trying to distract you all, but seriously....could any of us do what these people do? I would love for you to respond to that...I realize there is no mathematical equation involved and is purely emotional...but worth consideration. The answer is simply a question of supply and demand, the district actually received hundreds of resumes for each available position. So, I would answer that question with a question, do you actually think our staff isn't replaceable? IMO, everyone is replaceable. Furthermore, how many highly qualified and "far exceeds" (private sector term, not related to education) performing people have found themselves subject to a companies poor performance. Technically, Wantagh School district is bleeding cash and any well run company would adapt, but again we are limited by union restrictions. Hey to be clear, I am a union basher, not a teachers basher. I appreciate many and resent few of them, not because of salaries, but simply because of their lack of performance and the protection that is extended to them by the union.
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ducky
Junior Member
Posts: 34
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Post by ducky on Feb 23, 2011 11:05:21 GMT -5
Give him the same COLA that those of us on Social Security got for the last few years "0" and nothing else.
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Post by Chris_Wendt on Feb 23, 2011 15:20:33 GMT -5
Ducky puzzled me with this one: "Give him the same COLA that those of us on Social Security got for the last few years "0" and nothing else." Oh, come on...where is that written? That people who are NOT collecting Social Security Income should receive the same COLA that people who do receive SSI have received? (For this discussion, ZERO). Nowhere, that's where. That's not the rule, that's not the law, and that is certainly not any kind of a viable idea in this competitive world. It is more like pure Communism, if you want something to compare it to: everybody gets the same, regardless of what you do, how well you do what you do, etc. Communism. Now, don't get me wrong on this, Ducky. There is neither any justification nor any money for giving teachers raises. But those two facts are viable points for discussion; the SSI COLA comparison is not a valid rationale for not paying raises that are neither deserved nor economically defensible. We are both saying "No raises for teachers...", only, we are each using dramatically different reasoning. If my boss told me I was not getting a raise because the people on Social Security did not get a COLA, I would not accept that, and then chuckle to myself, and go looking for a new situation. If my boss told me I was not getting a raise because the Company lost a large, key account and money was tight, that I would accept on its face. Occasionally dazed, but not ever confused... Chris Wendt (For the record, although I have posted this in a thread titled, "The WUT disgusts me!", I want it understood that the WUT does NOT disgust me. - CW)
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Post by seriousconcern on Feb 23, 2011 21:14:27 GMT -5
No lily my family and I sat by the fire and sang glorious songs of peace and harmony...critical thinking be d**ned. Moderator you are correct Everyone is replaceable...your over paid admin, your low paid sec., you over worked and under respected custodial staff...everyone, just bear in mind...not everyone you replace someone with is qualified. You could hand me a script, But I assure you I won't deliver is like Julia Roberts. As far as your resent goes, I believe the people who aren't as qualified as you see fit are protected by state not union. Certain state laws govern the ability to remove a no longer qualified person...at least as it has been explained to me. It the long run it really seems I am very alone in seeing the humanity and reasonable side in teaching. Maybe that comes from my summer afternoons helping my mother set up her classroom, or the endless holiday bags I had to stuff for each of her students, I know all the energy my mother has, and continues to poor into her kids. I hope she is paid well, and retires well....she has earned it. All those messed up kids and their wacky families...all those grateful kids that were wacky but changed through the years, all those great kids and wild kids she spoke about at dinner....right after our family sing along that is, I know my mother has earned it and I am sure these people who are just faces in a hallway to you mean something to some kid, who would think you are out of you mind to want to get rid of this person who is shaping their life....
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Post by WantaghConcernedCitizens on Feb 24, 2011 9:12:59 GMT -5
No lily my family and I sat by the fire and sang glorious songs of peace and harmony...critical thinking be d**ned. Moderator you are correct Everyone is replaceable...your over paid admin, your low paid sec., you over worked and under respected custodial staff...everyone, just bear in mind...not everyone you replace someone with is qualified. You could hand me a script, But I assure you I won't deliver is like Julia Roberts. As far as your resent goes, I believe the people who aren't as qualified as you see fit are protected by state not union. Certain state laws govern the ability to remove a no longer qualified person...at least as it has been explained to me. It the long run it really seems I am very alone in seeing the humanity and reasonable side in teaching. Maybe that comes from my summer afternoons helping my mother set up her classroom, or the endless holiday bags I had to stuff for each of her students, I know all the energy my mother has, and continues to poor into her kids. I hope she is paid well, and retires well....she has earned it. All those messed up kids and their wacky families...all those grateful kids that were wacky but changed through the years, all those great kids and wild kids she spoke about at dinner....right after our family sing along that is, I know my mother has earned it and I am sure these people who are just faces in a hallway to you mean something to some kid, who would think you are out of you mind to want to get rid of this person who is shaping their life.... Those laws are in place because of union lobbying, have you not seen what is transpiring in Wisconsin? They are bleeding, the taxpayer (via the governor) is demanding concessions, the unions are holding up the process. IMO, this is simular (on a smaller scale) to the Greece and the European Union! You mother deserves her benefits, so long as my mother and father (also retired) doesn't have to pay for it. That right, my parents haven't received a COLA increase to Social Security because the government is crippled by the pensions obligations. Also, please stop it, it is so apparent that you are a member of the WUT.
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Post by Chris_Wendt on Feb 24, 2011 11:00:51 GMT -5
(For the record, although I have posted this in a thread titled, "The WUT disgusts me!", I want it understood that the WUT does NOT disgust me. - CW)
Okay, WCC does not think his parents should have to pay for WUT pensions, because they are retired on SSI, (and presumably have no other source of personal income). Well, pensions are not a product or function of the WUT; they are a product of the NYS Legislature, and are protected by state & federal statutes as well as by the state and federal constitutions. Protected, meaning, persons vested in the TRS Pension Fund have a property right to their pensions which right cannot be abridged by the legislature. Meaning, those who are vested in or collecting TRS pensions have no chance of losing them. But, new rules, a new type of pension system could be implemented tomorrow that would change the TRS dramatically for new entrants, including anyone not presently fully vested.
Of course, this is NOTHING the WUT (or any local union) has any control over or even any say about. Pension "negotiations" take place among the legislative branch of state government, and the umbrella unions, NYSUT and the NEA-UFT.
We can lobby our state senator and assemblyman for change, but can do nothing constructive about pension costs with the WUT, its leadership, or its membership.
You can keep poking them in the eye with a stick, and hope that maybe they will make concessions in their pay or working conditions so that you will go away and stop poking them in the eye with your annoying stick, but I don't that will be the result of your constant upbraiding of the WUT.
Nor can I imagine any responsible member of the District leadership/management team signing on to your union-bashing antics that not even you, yourself, will sign you own name to.
Quoting you: please stop it.
Irritated by this distracting noise, including by the union shills...
Chris Wendt
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Post by seriousconcern on Feb 24, 2011 14:06:17 GMT -5
I want to be clear that I have no problem not being anonymous. I hadn't realized when I signed up on this thing you could put your real name. I am Alex Young anytime you would like to look me up feel free, Chris I noticed on another board you were looking to come up with some solutions and I find that much more important then this post at this point. Thank you, I will be commenting on there soon, after I get some facts straight. Thanks
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Post by WantaghConcernedCitizens on Feb 25, 2011 9:51:05 GMT -5
(For the record, although I have posted this in a thread titled, "The WUT disgusts me!", I want it understood that the WUT does NOT disgust me. - CW) Okay, WCC does not think his parents should have to pay for WUT pensions, because they are retired on SSI, (and presumably have no other source of personal income). Well, pensions are not a product or function of the WUT; they are a product of the NYS Legislature, and are protected by state & federal statutes as well as by the state and federal constitutions. Protected, meaning, persons vested in the TRS Pension Fund have a property right to their pensions which right cannot be abridged by the legislature. Meaning, those who are vested in or collecting TRS pensions have no chance of losing them. But, new rules, a new type of pension system could be implemented tomorrow that would change the TRS dramatically for new entrants, including anyone not presently fully vested. Of course, this is NOTHING the WUT (or any local union) has any control over or even any say about. Pension "negotiations" take place among the legislative branch of state government, and the umbrella unions, NYSUT and the NEA-UFT. We can lobby our state senator and assemblyman for change, but can do nothing constructive about pension costs with the WUT, its leadership, or its membership. You can keep poking them in the eye with a stick, and hope that maybe they will make concessions in their pay or working conditions so that you will go away and stop poking them in the eye with your annoying stick, but I don't that will be the result of your constant upbraiding of the WUT. Nor can I imagine any responsible member of the District leadership/management team signing on to your union-bashing antics that not even you, yourself, will sign you own name to. Quoting you: please stop it. Irritated by this distracting noise, including by the union shills... Chris Wendt Your statements are accurate, but you forgot to mention, the pension obligations are calculated using the negotiated salaries. In addition, WUT is a member of the organization that lobbyies for laws that would protect their members, so they are indirectly part of the overall system. Furthermore, Wantagh School Districts biggest hurdle going forward is payment of the pension obligations, so shouldn't that be considered when negotiating a new contract? Lets try to consider the overall compensation package, not just the salaries, which is what our board of trustee should be doing. BTW, why should the pensions/payment be guaranteed/non negotiable during time of unrest. Think about it, they are able to deny the entire country SSI increases, but the pension are to be fully funded? That doesn't make sense, if you go bankrupt everything is negotiable, well the state would be in chapter 11 if they were a private organization. But they are not, they will just tax us in order to pay a select group without limiting anything. In closing, I'm speaking up for all the WUT members that are going to be let go, as they are unable too. UNION BASHER, NOT A TEACHER BASHER
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Post by Chris_Wendt on Feb 25, 2011 12:59:33 GMT -5
In response to WCC's points, above: ...you forgot to mention, the pension obligations are calculated using the negotiated salaries....Wantagh School Districts biggest hurdle going forward is payment of the pension obligations, so shouldn't that be considered when negotiating a new contract? Lets try to consider the overall compensation package, not just the salaries, which is what our board of trustee should be doing. Yes, this is an excellent point, articulately stated. At this point in time, any party to contract negotiations who does not consider "total compensation" when discussing any part of compensation costs (salary, medical, medical declination, pension, paid time-off, payout for unused sick days and contributions to the IRC-503(b) benefit trust) is seriously out of touch with reality. I would like to presume that Tom Vereline's uneasiness with the Board's negotiating posture is most likely due to the Board's consideration of "total compensation" at all times the discussion turns to any component of compensation. ...why should the pensions/payment be guaranteed/non negotiable during time of unrest. Think about it, they are able to deny the entire country SSI increases, but the pension are to be fully funded? That doesn't make sense, if you go bankrupt everything is negotiable, well the state would be in chapter 11 if they were a private organization. But they are not, they will just tax us in order to pay a select group without limiting anything. You answered your own question in the asking of it. The state is not a private organization, it is the government. The government cannot go "bankrupt". The school board cannot "negotiate about" the state constitution or state laws or regulations based on state laws. Guaranteed, means as a constitutionally guaranteed property right. That pretty much says it. It is not the state but the federal government that administers SSI. And the lack of a COLA was the result of current law formula for calculating COLA, the result of which calculation is that no COLA is due (COLA = zero). That may not be pleasant or welcome news, but that is the way SSI and COLA works. In closing, I'm speaking up for all the WUT members that are going to be let go, as they are unable too. UNION BASHER, NOT A TEACHER BASHER I don't understand your need to self-declare any personal animosity toward unions. But that is certainly your right to do so. However, that does not advance the discussion with the union, its leadership, or its membership, in terms of working with the school district to solve problems which absolutely require their participation and willingness to help. Hopefully, they (the Union leadership & members) do not consider you to be a representative of the school district, or that your anti-union bias reflects the position of the school district. Chris Wendt
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Post by WantaghConcernedCitizens on Feb 25, 2011 14:57:32 GMT -5
FYI, this tread was directed primarily at the last in first out policy the state is currently using, take a look at this recent Quinnipiac poll. www.newsday.com/news/new-york/poll-nyers-want-best-teachers-spared-in-layoffs-1.2711868The Quinnipiac University poll found 85 percent of voters want to spare the best teachers, regardless of how long they've been on the job. In the poll, even 75 percent of households with union members support performance-based criteria. "Voters, especially voters with kids in public school, want to keep the best teachers on the job and to heck with seniority," said Maurice Carroll, director of the Quinnipiac poll. He said 64 percent of voters also support raises for teachers based on merit and about the same share want to make it easier to fire ineffective teachers.It almost as if they conducted this poll in response to my thread ;D
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